Epson 3800-Two Problems

[Mark D Segal]

I've found that it doesn't really make a difference. I leave mine at the default but have tried it up to 3 seconds per head pass -- yes, it makes the whole printing process take forever!

Either way, the fact remains that the dark areas of the print still get the same amount of ink coverage, and the only way to get rid of the ripples is to let the print dry thoroughly. Then, if the ripples still aren't completely gone, sandwich the print between two pieces of acid-free tissue and then put a heavy weight carefully over the print to help flatten the print further. Be careful when doing this so as not to damage the print.
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Eric, we've been around this one before too, but something here just doesn't make sense to me. My prints come out of the Epson 4800 "almost dry" - in the sense that one can hardly see any rippling at all - just a slight dampness in very dark areas of the print. (And the same was true for my 2000P and 4000 printers in the past.) I leave them to dry overnight anyhow, but this rippling seems to be a 3800 phenominon and one wonders why.

[madmanchan]

1. Would a custom profile (eg made by EyeOne + PM5?) solve the mottling issue? Because the problem seems to be leaning towards ink density and the way the ink is laid down. Can a custom profile solve that?

A custom profile doesn't appear to help. Believe me, I've tried. I've used various software (including PM5 and MonacoPROFILER). I've tried varying the ink density between -20% and +20%. I've used both 1440 dpi and 2880 dpi, both High Speed on and High Speed off. The mottling is still there. Note that profiles don't really vary the total ink density; they simply shift the balance between how much ink is put down. In other words, the total ink limit and overall ink strategy -- which is determined largely by the Media Type setting in the driver -- remains the same regardless of which profile is used.

I believe, based on all of the testing and evidence that I have available to me, that the mottling is largely due to an interaction between three things: (1) the 3800's new screening algorithm implemented by the driver, (2) the K3 inks, and (3) EEM paper.

2. Is there anybody with Colorbyte or Colorburst RIP who has printed without the mottling problem?  matt4626 > you mentioned about using a RIP, could you tell us what the software is? Thanks!
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I have used the ColorBurst RIP demo to make test prints on EEM. Yes, the mottling is reduced, but not eliminated. However, the black is also significantly weaker, leading to a less vibrant, less rich print. Makes me think the ink limit is set more conservatively with the ColorBurst RIP, which certainly could lead to less mottling, but at the expense of image quality. I have not tried making a custom profile for the ColorBurst RIP (not sure I can do this with the demo). The canned EEM profile that came with the ColorBurst RIP for the 3800 had some serious other issues, such as noticeable banding in the 3/4 shadow tones.

I would love to try a print using ImagePrint but unfortunately the demo version for Windows does not allow one to print (this is by design).

Interestingly, I had someone send me an EEM profile target the other day (for the purposes of making a custom profile). The target was printed with an Epson 2200 with UltraChrome inks. Not only was there zero mottling (none at all), but the d-max was considerably higher (1.77 compared to 1.65 with the 3800).

[clarkee80]

Ill keep an eye on the prints to see how they dry out, if they dont ill try the method suggested by Eric.

Another thing my prints suffer with is ink marks on the edge of the paper that is last out.

I know this has been covered before, and ive read the same response on several forums.

But are there any other ways apart from setting the platen gap to wider to solve the issue?

Its not  a constant problem, but the last few prints out have been marked.

Im printing on sheets of A3 and need the whole page as the prints are for my folio!!!

[John R Smith]

Eric

for what it is worth, I get serious mottling in solid black areas using EEM in my R2400 using the standard profile and the Advanced B/W mode. This also happens on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, but is much less noticeable. It does NOT happen on the Harman FB matt, or on gloss papers like Innova Ultra Smooth Gloss.

Best regards

John

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

I have been watching this thread with considerable interest, for a couple of reasons:

1.   About 99% of my printing is on EEM, and

2.   My Epson 2200 seems to be on its last legs (it goes to the Epson Doctor on Monday).

I have been seriously considering the 3800 instead of the 2400 when I do have to replace it, but I really do not want to have to deal with the mottling!

I use ImagePrint for color printing on the 2200, and QTR for B&W, but from what I've heard here on LL about the 3800, it sounds as if I shouldn't need a RIP (which I needed for decent color on the 2200 --- If I had known that I would be using EEM almost exclusively, I would have been better off getting a custom profile; but hen, if pigs had wings . . . )

I hope you guys get this solved before too long. And thanks for all the good info.

-Eric

[smthopr]

A custom profile doesn't appear to help. Believe me, I've tried. I've used various software (including PM5 and MonacoPROFILER). I've tried varying the ink density between -20% and +20%. I've used both 1440 dpi and 2880 dpi, both High Speed on and High Speed off. The mottling is still there. Note that profiles don't really vary the total ink density; they simply shift the balance between how much ink is put down. In other words, the total ink limit and overall ink strategy -- which is determined largely by the Media Type setting in the driver -- remains the same regardless of which profile is used.

I believe, based on all of the testing and evidence that I have available to me, that the mottling is largely due to an interaction between three things: (1) the 3800's new screening algorithm implemented by the driver, (2) the K3 inks, and (3) EEM paper.
I have used the ColorBurst RIP demo to make test prints on EEM. Yes, the mottling is reduced, but not eliminated. However, the black is also significantly weaker, leading to a less vibrant, less rich print. Makes me think the ink limit is set more conservatively with the ColorBurst RIP, which certainly could lead to less mottling, but at the expense of image quality. I have not tried making a custom profile for the ColorBurst RIP (not sure I can do this with the demo). The canned EEM profile that came with the ColorBurst RIP for the 3800 had some serious other issues, such as noticeable banding in the 3/4 shadow tones.

I would love to try a print using ImagePrint but unfortunately the demo version for Windows does not allow one to print (this is by design).

Interestingly, I had someone send me an EEM profile target the other day (for the purposes of making a custom profile). The target was printed with an Epson 2200 with UltraChrome inks. Not only was there zero mottling (none at all), but the d-max was considerably higher (1.77 compared to 1.65 with the 3800).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133804\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It just occurred to me that the 3800 is the only printer with the photo and matte blacks inks installed at the same time. Could there be an issue of mixing of the black inks? Just thinking outloud...

-bruce

[Mark D Segal]

I have been watching this thread with considerable interest, for a couple of reasons:

1.   About 99% of my printing is on EEM, and

2.   My Epson 2200 seems to be on its last legs (it goes to the Epson Doctor on Monday).

I have been seriously considering the 3800 instead of the 2400 when I do have to replace it, but I really do not want to have to deal with the mottling!

I use ImagePrint for color printing on the 2200, and QTR for B&W, but from what I've heard here on LL about the 3800, it sounds as if I shouldn't need a RIP (which I needed for decent color on the 2200 --- If I had known that I would be using EEM almost exclusively, I would have been better off getting a custom profile; but hen, if pigs had wings . . . )

I hope you guys get this solved before too long. And thanks for all the good info.

-Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133830\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi EricM.

It's not a good time to buy a new printer. Especially if like me you are mainly using Epson Enhanced Matte. Based on all I've seen and heard my overall impression of the current market situation is this: the Epson 3800 can produce great results, but I think it is a transitional product with some issues for which there is no estimated time of resolution. The Canon IPF5000 remains problematic in most of the ways that John Hollenberg;s Wiki have revealed. The HP Z3100 seems like a dream machine but you need to be able to justify the cost.

It's hard to give people advice about what they should buy, but if you can nurse your 2200 for another year or so, it is a considerable option, because by then there should be a new raft of options from Epson and others that may resolve the current issues and cause regret for having invested in one of the current crop.

If however you have no choice and really need a machine to tide you over, an Epson 2400 (now at B&H for 750 minus 75 rebate) is probably a great value and a sensible price point under the circumstances. Also it will be closest to what you already know best.

[madmanchan]

Eric, we've been around this one before too, but something here just doesn't make sense to me. My prints come out of the Epson 4800 "almost dry" - in the sense that one can hardly see any rippling at all - just a slight dampness in very dark areas of the print. (And the same was true for my 2000P and 4000 printers in the past.) I leave them to dry overnight anyhow, but this rippling seems to be a 3800 phenominon and one wonders why.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree, Mark. It is a little odd. I have heard reports from several 3800 users (via email, here, and other forums) that matte prints come out not only damp, but the paper is wavy or ripply. I don't know whether the differences seen between the 3800 and other K3 printers (e.g., the 4800) are due to environmental conditions, but I doubt it. If the print was ripply/wavy after several days, or became that way after a long period, then yes, I might argue that differences in humidity might play a role. But in the cases that I've seen, the print comes out from the printer and immediately appears wavy, and only in the dark areas of the print, where the ink coverage is heavy. Midtones and highlights show no such waviness. I don't have an explanation for it, but it does seem to be happening.

[madmanchan]

But are there any other ways apart from setting the platen gap to wider to solve the issue?

Its not  a constant problem, but the last few prints out have been marked.

Im printing on sheets of A3 and need the whole page as the prints are for my folio!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133810\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Unfortunately, not that I know of. BTW, I set my Platen Gap to Wide, not Wider. If you have very well-behaved paper, i.e., the sheet is extremely flat, then you may not need to set the PG to Wide/Wider. But for now I see no disadvantage (visually, in terms of inspecting image quality in the printed result) of using PG = Wide, so that's what I do. No head strikes since February (which is when I got the printer).

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Hi EricM.

It's not a good time to buy a new printer. Especially if like me you are mainly using Epson Enhanced Matte. Based on all I've seen and heard my overall impression of the current market situation is this: the Epson 3800 can produce great results, but I think it is a transitional product with some issues for which there is no estimated time of resolution. The Canon IPF5000 remains problematic in most of the ways that John Hollenberg;s Wiki have revealed. The HP Z3100 seems like a dream machine but you need to be able to justify the cost.

It's hard to give people advice about what they should buy, but if you can nurse your 2200 for another year or so, it is a considerable option, because by then there should be a new raft of options from Epson and others that may resolve the current issues and cause regret for having invested in one of the current crop.

If however you have no choice and really need a machine to tide you over, an Epson 2400 (now at B&H for 750 minus 75 rebate) is probably a great value and a sensible price point under the circumstances. Also it will be closest to what you already know best.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133844\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Mark,

Sounds look good advice. The HP seems out of my price range, and if it weren't for John H's wiki (which seems a great substitute for the missing manual), I'd never consider the Canons. My 2200 has done so well for me that I'm very likely to stick with Epson.

The information that you and Eric Chan have put out here on LuLa about the 3800 make it sound very tempting. But I agree that waiting for next year's crop of new printers is a good idea if possible.

My 2200 goes to the printer doctor Monday. It has been giving error warnings for about a week now, and just a few minutes ago it decided to quit altogether (the all-red-lights-flashing syndrome).    

Fortunately, I don't have any pressing printing needs this week. So I'll repair it this time at least, and see how far it takes me.

Thanks,

-Eric M.

[dealy663]

I've not noticed any problems with greens on HPR308 or HPR196 Duo. I do however print with my own custom profiles on this paper.

Mottling on EEM is definitely a problem I've seen on both the 3800 and the 2400 K3 printers.

[dealy663]

I don't agree that it is a bad time to buy a printer.

There are great choices available from Canon Epson and HP in both the 13" and 17" range of printers.

I really like the prints that I'm getting out of my 3800. And seriously doubt that I will bother upgrading within the next 2 or 3 years no matter what Epson or the others come out with.... well that is unless they come out with a 17" printer, with roll feed, no pizza wheels, no black switching and cost $500!

If your 2200 is working for you then that's great. If you're printing a lot then I don't agree that the 2400 is a good choice. Switching inks and the small cartridges were a constant annoyance for me on that printer. I've had my 3800 for about 6 months now and still haven't yet changed out a cart (though I will have to do the lk cart fairly soon).

Derek

[Mark D Segal]

I don't agree that it is a bad time to buy a printer.

There are great choices available from Canon Epson and HP in both the 13" and 17" range of printers.

Derek
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133909\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There is no question that the current generation of printers produces excellent prints. But for the Epsons and Canons (setting aside the "Cadillac" solution of an HP z3100) there are a number of known issues most of which we should expect to be worked out in forthcoming models within a year. That was the basis of my suggestion.