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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #100 on: July 29, 2007, 04:11:25 pm »

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I read it's all sloppy math. That the product isn't suitable for professional users. Are you suggesting that the guys who wrote the math and looked at the final color appearance (that historically have pleased its users) are right?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130485\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Go to my article and look at Figure 20. Would you want such a sick-looking cat? Now I'm just working up some citrus to further test this business about how CR can handle images with a very bright predominant colour and you should see what those oranges and grapefruits look like in luminosity mode - yuch - the Citrus Growers would sack that photographer!

OK, I happen to think Thomas and Co. got it right. And they also got it right by providing a Luminosity Mode. Like everything in Photoshop as we all know, there are alternative ways to get what we want. I showed a few in the article. Another approach is to layer a Normal curve on a Luminosity curve and adjust opacities till one has the "right" contrast and saturation. But that's a bit trickier.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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laughfta

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« Reply #101 on: July 29, 2007, 04:32:27 pm »

Not quibbling here, but Dan didn't say that, I did. Dan's quote is in a quote box.

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If we get there, does it matter whether the effect can be "turned-off" or not? I would think not; at the same time however, I can see some merit to the idea of a pure luminance-based contrast tool in CR.


Nope, I don't think it matters. However, the more understanding of how these tools work, the better one can use them. And we can't learn or when to use them if they can't be discussed.

For example, if the "hue locking" curve allows a (mild or not) shift in hue, isn't that worth knowing?  

If every curve you pull on the ACR/LR curve affects saturation, shouldn't we also know that?

I've learned a lot the last few days. Guillermo, thanks for all those visuals, and the info. Peter, I'm going to go study your chart. Thanks.

Mark, great effort but the Twins are back, so...discussion is over.
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #102 on: July 29, 2007, 04:35:12 pm »

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Guillermo, it would surprise me if CR were generating "new blue tones" (whatever that means) that didn;t exist before. For sure it generates much more saturated blue given the hugely pronounced S curve you put into that rendition, and the brightnesses will be very different, so yes it can look like "new blue" but is it really? - have the hue values shifted at all or by more than a couple of degrees?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No no Mark, believe me, actual NEW blues appear. The X axis of these histograms means Hue ranging from 0..255 (I used this scale instead of 0º..360º for compatibility with the other histograms [a href=\"http://www.guillermoluijk.com/software/tonehacker/index.htm]Tone Hacker[/url] calculates).

If the result is acceptable or it is not will depend on how demanding you and/or your work are about tone precision.

The main peak where almost all original blue tones concentrate shifts by 2 pixels; and in addition to this an important secondary peak with a blue closer to cyan than the original one appears at a distance of 7 pixels:



That means:
- Main tone being shifted by 2*360/256=2.81º, and
- Secondary tone appearing with an error respect to the original of 7*360/256=9.84º

Is this acceptable for you?


Independently of how important is this issue for a given user, I simply say: if PS in Luminance blending mode can achieve an almost perfect tone preservation, why ACR (from the same Adobe) cannot?

digitaldog

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« Reply #103 on: July 29, 2007, 04:46:05 pm »

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If every curve you pull on the ACR/LR curve affects saturation, shouldn't we also know that?

All I have to do is look. I've got numbers, I've got color appearance. Knowing what's going on under the hood is mildly useful to some. Its not a requirement for producing acceptable and desired color rendering. That the curves affect saturation is only a problem if the user can't produce a desired color appearance with the toolset. So far, no one has demonstrated that this is a problem, in fact the opposite.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #104 on: July 29, 2007, 05:06:35 pm »

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Well, the shot on the left was by Jay Maisel, and the shot on the right... no, wait a minute...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

By Andrew Rodney?  
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #105 on: July 29, 2007, 05:13:55 pm »

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No no Mark, believe me, actual NEW blues appear. The X axis of these histograms means Hue ranging from 0..255 (I used this scale instead of 0º..360º for compatibility with the other histograms

If the result is acceptable or it is not will depend on how demanding you and/or your work are about tone precision.

The main peak where almost all original blue tones concentrate shifts by 2 pixels; and in addition to this an important secondary peak with a blue closer to cyan than the original one appears at a distance of 7 pixels:

Is this acceptable for you?
Independently of how important is this issue for a given user, I simply say: if PS in Luminance blending mode can achieve an almost perfect tone preservation, why ACR (from the same Adobe) cannot?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130492\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Guillermo, I'm puzzled about this, because the outcome is supposed to be the other way around: CR curves are supposed to preserve hue, Photoshop Curves do not necessarily preserve hue. So there is some disconnect between the measurements you have made and the purported behaviour of the programs. Not saying who's right or wrong here, just pointing out that there is a disconnect, and I don't understand why it's happening. Now I hate to ask you because I know it is tedious, but if you were to do the same kind of HSB measurements from selected pixels in the image that I have been doing, would you get the same general conclusion? Perhaps it is worth checking to see whether you come to the same finding using two different measurement techniques.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Schewe

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« Reply #106 on: July 29, 2007, 05:14:50 pm »

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Is this acceptable for you?
Independently of how important is this issue for a given user, I simply say: if PS in Luminance blending mode can achieve an almost perfect tone preservation, why ACR (from the same Adobe) cannot?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130492\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It's acceptable to me...and has been since Camera Raw 1.0 (even before the bundled version in CS) because I get more than acceptable raw conversions. If I need to do more, later in Photoshop, I do.

At a certain point, what use is navel gazing...it all comes down to the image. Can you get the image to look exactly the way you want? I can...as for why, Mark explained it, luminance without a sat changes looks weird (as I indicated in the sample image you showed).

If you want that changed, take it up with Thomas Knoll on the Camera Raw forum where he hangs out. But I'll warn you, ya better have something more than what you've shown so far...charts and graphs are one thing, use cases with example images go a lot further.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #107 on: July 29, 2007, 05:20:29 pm »

Quote
Not quibbling here, but Dan didn't say that, I did. Dan's quote is in a quote box.
Nope, I don't think it matters. However, the more understanding of how these tools work, the better one can use them. And we can't learn or when to use them if they can't be discussed.

For example, if the "hue locking" curve allows a (mild or not) shift in hue, isn't that worth knowing? 

If every curve you pull on the ACR/LR curve affects saturation, shouldn't we also know that?

I've learned a lot the last few days. Guillermo, thanks for all those visuals, and the info. Peter, I'm going to go study your chart. Thanks.

Mark, great effort but the Twins are back, so...discussion is over.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130491\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Gloria,

I know what Dan said and it is similar to what you said he said, so agreed no quibble.

Of course what these curves do and don't do can and should be discussed here - no question - the purpose of my paper and this whole discussion.

Emjoy the twins. We just had a whole week with the grand-children. They were great fun, but it sure is nice their parents are back from vacation!  
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #108 on: July 29, 2007, 05:43:42 pm »

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Guillermo, I'm puzzled about this, because the outcome is supposed to be the other way around: CR curves are supposed to preserve hue, Photoshop Curves do not necessarily preserve hue. So there is some disconnect between the measurements you have made and the purported behaviour of the programs. Not saying who's right or wrong here, just pointing out that there is a disconnect, and I don't understand why it's happening. Now I hate to ask you because I know it is tedious, but if you were to do the same kind of HSB measurements from selected pixels in the image that I have been doing, would you get the same general conclusion? Perhaps it is worth checking to see whether you come to the same finding using two different measurement techniques.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, on my side these tone histograms match the conclusions obtained with all HSB values provided by PS probes (picture of the girl, and picture of the flag).

Always when checking Hue on PS Lum mode curves, it is perfectly preserved. On the contrary, when checking Hue on ACR originated curves there is a Hue shift in some degree.

In the picture of the flag that you downloaded this can could be seen, did you check Hue values on some other spots of the picture?


The formulas my program uses to generate a Hue value from every R,G,B triad are the standard I found on the [a href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSV_color_space]Wikipedia page[/url] and this is my implementation, if you know about coding you will see there is no secret:



And the fact that PS Lum mode curves preserve perfectly Hue according to this RGB to HSB formulation makes me think I am doing things right in that code.

What else can we do? could you upload some picture where you found Hue not changing when applying curves in ACR?
You must see that my curve was very agressive; maybe those curves you used in your tests were not so strong and Hue shift was minor.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 05:45:58 pm by GLuijk »
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Ray

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« Reply #109 on: July 29, 2007, 09:52:10 pm »

I find this thread quite fascinating, although I'm not going to pretend I understand it all.

There are a number of analogies that spring to mind. Do you need to be a car mechanic in order to pass your driving test? Is it helpful to know something about the mechanics of a car if you're driving it? Definitely yes, I would say.

Does a piano player, well let's upgrade, a concert pianist need to know how to tune a piano? No he/she doesn't, but the processes involved should perhaps be background knowledge; the fact that certain frequencies interfere with each other and produce 'beats' which the piano tuner listens for, is something which must be of interest.

The use of curves in Photoshop or ACR is akin to playing the piano. As I wrote before, it's very heuristic. One gets a sense through continual practice that a nudge here and a nudge there produces the desired effect.

Should we delve deeper into what's going on under the bonnet? Why not! It will at least increase our awareness of the issues.
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #110 on: July 30, 2007, 04:47:17 am »

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I have created this thread for any feedback and discussion of my essay "Do Your Curves Throw You a Curve?", published on Luminous-Landscape today. It would be ideal if all contributors to this discussion posted in this thread, for continuity and ease of reference.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

how strange, I already answered to you yesterday, showing how many degrees Hue shifted when using ACR curves, but my answer is now gone

- The main peak shifted by 2.8º I think
- And a new hue peak appeared more than beyond the original tone
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 04:48:06 am by GLuijk »
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laughfta

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« Reply #111 on: July 30, 2007, 05:49:40 am »

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how strange, I already answered to you yesterday, showing how many degrees Hue shifted when using ACR curves, but my answer is now gone

Not gone, Guillermo, just covered by some others  ...I think you are referring to post#103?
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #112 on: July 30, 2007, 06:15:16 am »

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Not gone, Guillermo, just covered by some others  ...I think you are referring to post#103?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hehe, yes that must be the reason. I am at work now and here, I don't know why, the threads structure is presented in form of expanding trees with posts related ones to others. I don't like this way of presentation, and I don't know how to get to post #103. It does not appear in my present tree view.

How should I do it?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 06:15:37 am by GLuijk »
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laughfta

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« Reply #113 on: July 30, 2007, 07:21:24 am »

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hehe, yes that must be the reason. I am at work now and here, I don't know why, the threads structure is presented in form of expanding trees with posts related ones to others. I don't like this way of presentation, and I don't know how to get to post #103. It does not appear in my present tree view.

How should I do it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130573\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Up at the top of the page, on the title bar and on the right, there are options for Outline, Standard, and Linear+. I am on Standard...does that do it?
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #114 on: July 30, 2007, 08:59:14 am »

Guillermo, Gloria has it right - just select the presentation option that keeps all the posts presented in sequence. Somehow or other without my knowing how, my L-L set-up got converted into one of those trees - messed me up until I saw how to get back to the "staightforward" presentation of one post after the other.

On the substantive issue, I saw that Jeff Schewe answered your message on the hue shift. I haven't answered yet because I'm working on some stuff that is related. I think I may be able to replicate that kind of behaviour in a completely different image. It is I imagine conceivable that the hue retention is not absolutely perfect accross the spectrum in CR, but it also conceivable that there are limitations with the measurements themselves. I think this may an issue worth posting to the Adobe Camera Raw Forum. Jeff has said Thomas Knoll watches that traffic - if it comes to attention of either Thomas or others involved, they may have something to say about it.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Brian Gilkes

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« Reply #115 on: July 30, 2007, 06:01:26 pm »

Eureka!
I've got rid of the tree! I thought it was a permanent affliction. Thanks.
Now on thread (I hope).
The problem of colour shifts when using curves to control luminosity, even when blending in luminosity ,can be solved for $50.with Lobster
See www.freegamma.com
I couldn't believe it when I first saw it work.
This will solve a lot of other Photoshop problems too.
I'd be interested in comments by some of the experts on this thread.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au

PS I have no shares in the company and paid for my copy.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #116 on: July 30, 2007, 07:23:36 pm »

Quote
Eureka!
I've got rid of the tree! I thought it was a permanent affliction. Thanks.
Now on thread (I hope).
The problem of colour shifts when using curves to control luminosity, even when blending in luminosity ,can be solved for $50.with Lobster
See www.freegamma.com
I couldn't believe it when I first saw it work.
This will solve a lot of other Photoshop problems too.
I'd be interested in comments by some of the experts on this thread.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au

PS I have no shares in the company and paid for my copy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130738\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Brian, I'm aware of it, I see it is only in BEta for Windows so I'd have to wait. I see one also needs to send it flattened files, so that has workflow implications. I also see it is not specified for CS3 yet, and they don't say whether it can work with 16 bit images. But it does sound like an attractive complement to Photoshop once up-dated and brought to commercial use for Windows.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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laughfta

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« Reply #117 on: July 31, 2007, 08:36:33 am »

From the Wiki site (Thanks Mark, Guillermo, Rich):
RGB Saturation = 1-(Min/Max).
(other color mode equations  will be different, I'm sure)

I sampled a green pixel and obtained these  RGB values: R 53, G 64, B 85
Minimum  is the Red component at 53.  Maximum is the Blue component, at 85.
53/85 is .6235.
1-.6235 is .3765,
which rounds up to 38 and is expressed as a percentage— so that particular hue has a saturation of 38%.

At this point there was no need to actually DO the math, because PS does that for you.  I soon came to realize that the closer together in value the min and max were, the less saturated they were.  (if they were only separated by a few points say 128,130,131, we would have a saturation of 2%.)
The further apart the values were, the higher the saturation percentage.
0, 128, 86 is also green, and shows saturation of 100%.

The 'B' element HSB is even easier to determine—it is the maximum reading obtained from the three components of the RGB pixel  expressed as a percentage.  In the case above, it is 85%
Hue is a little more complicated, but also uses the Min and Max measurements.

My  original saturation question stemmed from a need to understand if or how hue, sat, and brightness affected each other. I see now what Guillermo meant when he said these are all independent of each other.  

The relationship instead rests in the RGB values.  

Raising or lowering the three RGB components of a pixel equally should only impact Brightness (Max) Changing the relationship between the Min or the Max, though (by raising or lowering them independently of each other), will affect the Saturation and Hue of that pixel.

This amounts to a small, unnecessary, but very satisfying peek under the hood, for me. I hope it is accurate.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2007, 10:06:57 am »

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Raising or lowering the three RGB components of a pixel equally should only impact Brightness (

...................I hope it is accurate.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not quite.  Demonstration:

Start with your RGB values of 53,64,85. As you show, 1-(53/85) = 0.376.

Now add 100 to each (if this is what you mean by raising or lowering a pixel equally). You get the following outcome:

1-(153/185) = 0.173.

However, if what you mean by "equally is an equal PERCENTAGE, then we get the following result, using a 50% adder: i.e. each value multiplied by 1.5:

1-(79.5/127.5) = 0.376

So you preserve the S value if you add a constant percentage to each value, but not a constant amount.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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laughfta

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« Reply #119 on: July 31, 2007, 03:16:55 pm »

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However, if what you mean by "equally is an equal PERCENTAGE, then we get the following result, using a 50% adder: i.e. each value multiplied by 1.5:...


Well, I'd like to say I meant percentage, but no, I just got carried away and started thinking subtraction instead of division...I should have let it perk awhile longer. But thanks for pointing that out, Mark. It's interesting to consider that if I had just known how to ask the question to begin with,  I would have received around 4000 answers by now!

Moving on, I have a question about the fill and recovery sliders. How do these compare with the shadow/highlight sliders in PS? I have found that I use the shadow/highlight very carefully, and for just the same reason you mentioned about fill—if one is not careful, a light, flat shadow is the result. Have you seen any disconnect between what looks good on a monitor, and what prints well with these tools?
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