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Author Topic: HP APS 1.21 for Z3100  (Read 10415 times)

rdonson

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HP APS 1.21 for Z3100
« on: July 15, 2007, 12:21:24 pm »

I've just installed HP's Advanced Profiling System and updated it to version 1.21 (the latest).  So far I've only calibrated and profiled my monitor but I thought I'd share some of my experiences since others had expressed interest in this product.  I'll update things as I do and learn more.

Some links first:

APS - What is it?

HP Product Description of APS

APS Quick Start Guide

APS FAQs

The colorimeter is an HP branded Gretag i1 Display 2.  The APS monitor calibration is similar to i1 Match 3.2a but a different GUI and fewer features.  APS it doesn't care about ambient light unless you go for "validation".  I also don't get to set a target luminance or gamma.  Really dumbed down from i1 Match 3.2a and therefore much less useful.

The other curious thing is that when I try to register the product I get a really nice funky error message.  Activation of APS, however, went smoothly.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 07:37:24 pm by rdonson »
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Ron

rdonson

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HP APS 1.21 for Z3100
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2007, 05:03:21 pm »

An interesting "catch 22" occurs when printing the TC9.18 RGB target.

You have the option of printing:
- default
- optimized for paper width
- cut to allow remeasure
- both options

I chose "both options".  It prints out the target and cuts it off without the paper name, printer model, ICC profile name, username and timestamp that you'd get from the easy targets.

Note: after it successfully reads the target and creates the profile it will print the paper name, etc on the target.  The lack of this is indicative of a failure to properly complete the process.

So I gave it an hour or so to dry before asking it to read the target.  This is where the fun begins.

If you load the printed target back in as sheet media you get "Loaded media is too small.  Please insert the correct media and try again."

If you load the printed target back in as roll media it will read about 75% of the target and then abort because it thinks its run out of roll paper.

I haven't figured out yet if this is just some weird occurrence that I accidentally ran into or if HP and X-Rite just never tested this out.

update:  

optimized for 24" paper prints a target 14.5" long vs. a default of 19"

even using a default printed target I'm having some problems with the read.  APS reports a problem at the printer and says to look at the printer window and the printer just says "Ready".  

back to the drawing board.

update 2:

after a few reboots of Windoze I was able to successfully print and measure a TC9.18 target and the create an ICC profile.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 09:47:09 pm by rdonson »
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Ron

Charles Gast

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HP APS 1.21 for Z3100
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2007, 08:33:27 am »

Thanks for the info!  Does it allow printing of targets on a pair of 11x17 sheets or allow larger patch count targets to be used?
I can't see spending more than a few hundred on it in any case and its a totally dead issue unless I can use 11x17's for targets.
I wonder what the percentage is of z series plotter buyers (the hp people always want to call my printer a Plotter) get  the aps too?


Charlie
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 09:33:53 am by Charles Gast »
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rternbach

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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2007, 08:51:53 am »

Quote
Thanks for the info!  Does it allow printing of targets on a pair of 11x17 sheets or allow larger patch count targets to be used?
I can't see spending more than a few hundred on it in any case and its a totally dead issue unless I can use 11x17's for targets.
I wonder what the percentage is of z series plotter sales (the hp people always want to call my printer a Plotter) get  the aps too?
Charlie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128405\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm wondering if I should order the Z3100 without the HP PS/APS features. Instead, I can wait and get the Imageprint RIP at a later date and after it's available and has been debugged for the Z3100. Any suggestions on this topic would be greatfully appreciated.

rternbach
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Charles Gast

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HP APS 1.21 for Z3100
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2007, 09:32:53 am »

Quote
I'm wondering if I should order the Z3100 without the HP PS/APS features. Instead, I can wait and get the Imageprint RIP at a later date and after it's available and has been debugged for the Z3100. Any suggestions on this topic would be greatfully appreciated.

rternbach
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thats exactly what I am doing.  The APS is a ripoff in my opinion. Too much money and for something they should have obviously included in the z package to begin with. APS coming separately as a $800+ option is a HP marketing dept. idea. A bad idea.  It also is poorly supported. I am fairly certain it still cannot use high patch count targets and still requires the use of a 24 inch roll to profile a paper.

Imageprint will be available someday  .  Even if it costs twice as much as APS it will be far better as far as color accuracy. Colorbyte uses a spectro to create profiles which is much more accurate than the one in the printer but it  will still uses the printer spectro to characterize the heads.  The biggest mistake I think Colorbyte made was agreeing to let HP do the ink recipes.  I suspect Colorbyte may have given up on HP (wisely so) and started their own formulations. This could account for the long delays in release.  To me paying for APS is giving a large sum of money to support a very bad HP marketing decision and buying Imageprint will be paying a larger sum, but for higher image quality.   We will have to see what happens but I will want to see reviews (as in more than one) of the z series IP7 before I buy it.
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rdonson

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HP APS 1.21 for Z3100
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2007, 10:32:05 am »

Quote
Does it allow printing of targets on a pair of 11x17 sheets or allow larger patch count targets to be used?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128405\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can't answer that right now.  I will check though as it sure would be nice to use A3 paper for profiling of the TC9.18 target.  I think that Neil or Robert (Panascape) reported previously that it can't.

I'm still learning all that APS 1.21 is about and how much better the profiles are from the larger targets.  

So far the new new profile for Epson Enhanced Matte shows some nice improvements although, I'll beat Christopher to his point, it won't fix the reds on that paper.
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Ron

rdonson

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HP APS 1.21 for Z3100
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2007, 10:34:29 am »

Quote
I'm wondering if I should order the Z3100 without the HP PS/APS features. Instead, I can wait and get the Imageprint RIP at a later date and after it's available and has been debugged for the Z3100. Any suggestions on this topic would be greatfully appreciated.

rternbach
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think that's a workable strategy if you can wait on ColorByte.  In the past their concept of "it will be ready in a month" has been closer to a year than a month.
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Ron

rdonson

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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2007, 10:45:54 am »

Quote
I am fairly certain it still cannot use high patch count targets and still requires the use of a 24 inch roll to profile a paper.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

APS provides TC9.18 targets which I think are 1100 color patches.  I'm not sure how much would be gained going to a higher number of patches.  Color management gurus can argue the practical advantage of that.
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Mussi_Spectraflow

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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2007, 02:50:38 pm »

Just to make a small point the Spectro in the printer is a real spectro. It produces measured results that generate profiles just as good as the DTP70, which has made more than a few good profiles. also the number of patches can make a difference...but the profiling software really is the magic bullet. It also depends on what you consider good. I tested the Z3100 using GMB, Monaco Profiler and Easy color. They all delivered good results but each had their strength, to be honest for photographic output the easy color profiles are quite good on most media. Colorbyte's profiles are very good for photographic work however this is because of their work in linearization, screening, and profile building work...not just the spectro used. I'm not sure the APS is worthless, in fact i think it's decent software...however I am tending to agree that it should have been included in the package(minus the eye1), or at least some sort of export option that could be used with other software packages.

Julian Mussi
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Julian Mussi
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rdonson

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HP APS 1.21 for Z3100
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2007, 03:03:31 pm »

Quote
I'm not sure the APS is worthless, in fact i think it's decent software...however I am tending to agree that it should have been included in the package(minus the eye1), or at least some sort of export option that could be used with other software packages.

Julian Mussi
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128468\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Julian, I don't understand your comment that I've underlined.  Could you explain further?
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Ron

Charles Gast

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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2007, 05:53:55 pm »

Quote
Julian, I don't understand your comment that I've underlined.  Could you explain further?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128471\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I suspect he means the ability to  export the raw spectro data so that some other profile generating software package can be used in place of the on board.
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rdonson

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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2007, 08:12:15 pm »

Quote
I suspect he means the ability to  export the raw spectro data so that some other profile generating software package can be used in place of the on board.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks, Charles.  If that's the case the APS does allow you to save the measurement data as a text file.  If that can be used by other profile generating software then it may do what he's looking for.

The text saved looks like this:

LGOROWLENGTH   34
CREATED   "7/15/2007"  # Time: 18:25
INSTRUMENTATION   "Unknown"
MEASUREMENT_SOURCE   "Illumination=Unknown   ObserverAngle=Unknown   WhiteBase=Abs   Filter=Unknown"
ILLUMINATION_NAME   "D50"
OBSERVER_ANGLE   "2"
KEYWORD   "SampleID"
KEYWORD   "SAMPLE_NAME"
NUMBER_OF_FIELDS   41
BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
SampleID   SAMPLE_NAME   RGB_R   RGB_G   RGB_B   nm380   nm390   nm400   nm410   nm420   nm430   nm440   nm450   nm460   nm470   nm480   nm490   nm500   nm510   nm520   nm530   nm540   nm550   nm560   nm570   nm580   nm590   nm600   nm610   nm620   nm630   nm640   nm650   nm660   nm670   nm680   nm690   nm700   nm710   nm720   nm730
END_DATA_FORMAT
NUMBER_OF_SETS   918
BEGIN_DATA
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rdonson

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HP APS 1.21 for Z3100
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2007, 08:32:13 pm »

I have to fall on my sword.  I reported bad info on the monitor profiling.  I went back tonight taking more time and discovered everything I wanted for profiling the monitor.







« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 08:53:30 pm by rdonson »
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dkeyes

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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2007, 02:08:40 am »

Quote
Thanks for the info!  Does it allow printing of targets on a pair of 11x17 sheets or allow larger patch count targets to be used?

Charles,
It will only print on one page that will fit all of the patches (whatever size patches you choose). So to print the largest (1100 or so patches) you need a 17x22 sheet or equivalent in any shape. I use scraps from my 44" rolls and it works on that as well.
Regarding color with the latest 1.21 update, I definitely noticed a red shift overall with highlights/lighter tones going slightly darker. Most of my soft proofed images are much closer on screen to my Prophoto files than before. I've only used HP Pro satin so far with the new update. (perceptual intent) So I can conclude that HP changed the color or my profiles weren't as accurate before (or both).
- Doug
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 02:09:45 am by dkeyes »
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Charles Gast

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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2007, 09:24:24 am »

Quote
Thanks, Charles.  If that's the case the APS does allow you to save the measurement data as a text file.  If that can be used by other profile generating software then it may do what he's looking for.

The text saved looks like this:

LGOROWLENGTH   34
CREATED   "7/15/2007"  # Time: 18:25
INSTRUMENTATION   "Unknown"
MEASUREMENT_SOURCE   "Illumination=Unknown
BEGIN_DATA
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128525\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I assume after the BEGIN_DATA line there are pages and pages of text info.
How big is this file?
I also would wonder if the file is actually compatible with other profiling software.
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rdonson

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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2007, 09:29:14 am »

Quote
I assume after the BEGIN_DATA line there are pages and pages of text info.
How big is this file?
I also would wonder if the file is actually compatible with other profiling software.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, lots of data after the BEGIN_DATA line.  I think the file was around 230Kb.
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rdonson

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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2007, 10:50:27 am »

I'm back online again.  My computer croaked and I had to spend a significant amount of time installing, updating and configuring everything all over again.   Not to mention the hundred plus updates to Windoze SP2.  Lots of reboots in this process.  

Anyway, life is almost back to normal except now on a much faster machine.

I hope to have some more time in the next two weeks to explore APS 1.21 more deeply.  I did get some time yesterday to compare the easy profile vs the TC9.18 profile generated in APS on Epson Enhanced Matte (my proofing paper of choice right now).  

The difference in softproofing is dramatic.  The prints are also noticeably better with the exception of the reds.  

Next up for me is to create a profile for HP Premium ID Satin with APS and the TC9.18 target.  

I'm also curious if anyone knows is the previously shared measurement data (text) available in APS can be used by any other profiling software.

One thing I'll say for APS and the built-in spectro - its hard to imagine a more user friendly, straightforward way to create profiles.
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A. Andrew Gonzalez

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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2007, 02:43:53 pm »

Greetings Ron,
Not sure if this is kosher or not but....
Is is possible to for you to send me your Enhanced Matte profile? I've been having some unusual (no-color) issues with my profile using the Z3100 Utility profiler and I'm trying to narrow it down. It's possibly a profile issue. If I see that yours helps with my issue then I'm picking up the APS

Thanks
Andrew
artifex@sublimatrix.com


Quote
I hope to have some more time in the next two weeks to explore APS 1.21 more deeply.  I did get some time yesterday to compare the easy profile vs the TC9.18 profile generated in APS on Epson Enhanced Matte (my proofing paper of choice right now). 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129517\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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A. Andrew Gonzalez
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rdonson

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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2007, 07:08:12 pm »

Thanks to Lorenz I've now updated to APS 1.3 - despite the following screen I haven't found any documentation yet on the multipage printing and profiling option.  This may be what some have been waiting for.

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rdonson

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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2007, 08:30:05 pm »

Still haven't found anything on APS 1.3 from HP but while searching I found this on APS 1.2

One interesting tidbit in the PDF that probably relates to APS 1.3 is the statement:

"In the next version, we will provide a solution to print large color patches (TC9.18 and
ECI2002) on A3+/B+ (13x19 inches) sheets since today they do not fit. This solution will
consist on splitting the charts into different sheets and allowing creating an ICC profile by
feeding different sheets."
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 08:34:34 pm by rdonson »
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