P45+ Review

[clawery]

Dear Chris,

as an information: the eMotion backs do not have a fan either, and don't need a wake-up. They use a different technology to not generate heat which is only possible with Dalsa sensors. The Dalsa sensor's "pulse-flush" design allows an instantaneous reset of the whole CCD. Kodak sensors needs to be run actively in the so-called "keep clean" mode.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127573\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

My apologies.  Thank you for the clarification.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com

[mtomalty]

Thierry

Is it possible with the most current  dalsa-chipped Sinar Backs to achieve
clean images when exposure times run in excess of 30 seconds or 1 minute where
the presence of very obvious noise (even at 25 and 50 iso) renders an image unuseable?

I have yet to experience a 30 plus second exposure with a dalsa sensor that wasn't
useable without extraordinary post processing to remove the resultant noise mess.

Granted,I only use the backs as loaners/rentals and don't work with them daily but,with that,
it is clear than there is a long exposure/noise issue  at play and cuts into the overall
effectiveness of the product for some of my intended useage.

Mark

P.S.-during a P45+ demo last month 4 minute exposures were problem free

[thsinar]

Chris,

nothing to apology: I have not felt offended!  

just a precision in addition to your info.

Thierry

Thierry,

My apologies.  Thank you for the clarification.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

Dear Mark,

It is difficult to answer in general terms, noise depending first on the ambient temperature when shooting. Also, I did honestly not make any noise tests with the e75 LV yet, although the new electronics inside have improved long exposures.

But Rainer has got his new upgraded back and informed here about very usable ISO 400, although I don't know his exposure time.

I know also that he used ISO 50 in his Bangkok Airport shooting and some 20 to 30 sec. exposure time with his "old" e75 and was saying that the noise level was not a problem.

May be he could emphasize here.

Now, speaking about Phase backs: yes, they have a very strong noise "filter" buil-in, at the expense of overall sharpness and details.
The Sinar file is not software filtered in case of long exposures, but we have a "Noise Reduction" function built-in Captureshop, alowing to eliminate "Luminance" and "Chrominance" noise very effectively. Have a look n this function and try it out.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Thierry

Is it possible with the most current  dalsa-chipped Sinar Backs to achieve
clean images when exposure times run in excess of 30 seconds or 1 minute where
the presence of very obvious noise (even at 25 and 50 iso) renders an image unuseable?

I have yet to experience a 30 plus second exposure with a dalsa sensor that wasn't
useable without extraordinary post processing to remove the resultant noise mess.

Granted,I only use the backs as loaners/rentals and don't work with them daily but,with that,
it is clear than there is a long exposure/noise issue  at play and cuts into the overall
effectiveness of the product for some of my intended useage.

Mark

P.S.-during a P45+ demo last month 4 minute exposures were problem free
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[mtomalty]

Thanks for the reply,Thierry.

Forgive me,but I just don't understand why it's so difficult to ascertain noise characteristics
of certain sensors as it relates to long exposure needs.

Would you be better able to access information if I asked about the noise characteristics
between 15 and 25 degrees (celsius)  at 45 seconds ?

From my experience ,albeit limited, Dalsa sensors really struggle beyond 20 seconds and I
find it a shame as I prefer the look of dalsa for almost everything else but knowing I will
be running my exposure times up frequently I can't justify a purchase without evidence
to suggest the performance issue I see is partly as a result of my inexperience with the
product and software.

Your reference to Rainers experience certainly seems to suggest that the dalsa sensor
is more capable with long exposures than I have seen.

Additionally,I feel your point regarding Phases onboard noise reduction compromising
image sharpness a little overstated.
It's seems clear they have 'pre-processing' going on as long exposure files are a little
smoother than a shorter exposure but the resulting file is certainly not unsharp nor
lacking in detail and enables one to shoot in certain situations where no other DB product
seems able.

Mark

[BernardLanguillier]

From my experience ,albeit limited, Dalsa sensors really struggle beyond 20 seconds and I
find it a shame as I prefer the look of dalsa for almost everything else but knowing I will
be running my exposure times up frequently I can't justify a purchase without evidence
to suggest the performance issue I see is partly as a result of my inexperience with the
product and software.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127733\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My experience with the ZD matches your information.

The Dalsa sensor is weak beyong 15 sec. Silkypix is in my book the RAW converter that is best at supressing the pattern noise generated by the sensor for long exposures.

I don't know to what extend Sinar has managed to overcome this sensor weakeness.

Long exposures is clearly THE reason why I would consider investing at some point of time into a PhaseOne back.

Regards,
Bernard

[thsinar]

Dear Mark,

First of all let me say that I didn't mean to say that a Phase file is not sharp or lacking in details (and didn't say it), but it is a fact that if you apply a noise filter IT DOES affect overall sharpness (and details). It is not a negative critic of a brand, simply a remark. As you wrote it yourself: "It's seems clear they have 'pre-processing' going on as long exposure files are a little
smoother than a shorter exposure".

Then and about noise with Dalsa sensors: I do not have specific data here. But I think that Dalsa sensors are not that much worse than Kodak sensors, in this respect and according to my general experience and if you look at the very raw data. The pre-processing of the file seems to play a big role here. And as said, we do not pre-process with a noise filter: this noise filter is included as a function into Captureshop. The reason is that our policy has always been to give as much as possible a raw data to the photographer.

But as suggested, I prefer a user with experience in long exposures to give his comment here: you would certainly be able to rely on it, since he used the sensor under very harsh temperature conditions (+30°C to + 45°C).

I shall try to gather some more specific information from our technicians, but am asking for your patience, since holiday season has started and some guys are away!

Thanks and kind regards,
Thierry

Thanks for the reply,Thierry.

Forgive me,but I just don't understand why it's so difficult to ascertain noise characteristics
of certain sensors as it relates to long exposure needs.

Would you be better able to access information if I asked about the noise characteristics
between 15 and 25 degrees (celsius)  at 45 seconds ?

From my experience ,albeit limited, Dalsa sensors really struggle beyond 20 seconds and I
find it a shame as I prefer the look of dalsa for almost everything else but knowing I will
be running my exposure times up frequently I can't justify a purchase without evidence
to suggest the performance issue I see is partly as a result of my inexperience with the
product and software.

Your reference to Rainers experience certainly seems to suggest that the dalsa sensor
is more capable with long exposures than I have seen.

Additionally,I feel your point regarding Phases onboard noise reduction compromising
image sharpness a little overstated.
It's seems clear they have 'pre-processing' going on as long exposure files are a little
smoother than a shorter exposure but the resulting file is certainly not unsharp nor
lacking in detail and enables one to shoot in certain situations where no other DB product
seems able.

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127733\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[mtomalty]

Thanks Bernard and Thierry

Mark