6 image stitch with TS lens (3 over 3)

[picnic]

I've been trying to figure out what I need to accomplish this and in the meantime saw a photo on dpreview by Andy Williams of a shot in Arches NP done with 3 over 3  http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=23417657

Andy stated that his lens (24 TSE) was 'modded' but we all assumed, and he confirmed, that the lens had been changed to shift/tilt parallel.  He didn't mention what else he used to take the 3 over 3 shot and hasn't answered, yet, my query.

So--my question is--what do I need to be able to accomplish that with a TS?  I'm familiar using the shift for 3 stitch panos, have a focusing rail  (RRS 192 Precision Plus Package) though I don't use it for the normal 3 stitch pano--use instead Jack Flesher's method of marking my L bracket.

TIA, Diane

[keith_cooper]

If you've not got anything close to the camera, there is no real need for any fancy tripod attachments when stitching multiple images from the 24T/S. That said if you remove parallax with various brackets and the like, it makes stitching a tad easier.

I don't have my 24 changed at all, you can do multiple stitches by a combination of rotating the lens and shifting.

You can see an example of this in an article on the 24 TSE at www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/tilt_and_shift_ts-e.html
You can also see the results you can get if you stitch 12 images (about half way down the page)

If you do want to modify the lens, it's the same as when I did it for my 90mm TSE www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/modify_canon_tilt-shift.html

I found the modification useful for when using the 90 for product shots, but I rarely use tilt with the 24 (interior and architectural work)

Given that it is much more difficult to correct lens distortions when using off-axis images, I rather use a better lens that I can correct using something like DxO, and use a pano head, and stitch the images using something like Stitcher.  Like most things it depends on what the image is going to be used for (and what the client wants) when picking a technique.

[picnic]

If you've not got anything close to the camera, there is no real need for any fancy tripod attachments when stitching multiple images from the 24T/S. That said if you remove parallax with various brackets and the like, it makes stitching a tad easier.

I don't have my 24 changed at all, you can do multiple stitches by a combination of rotating the lens and shifting.

You can see an example of this in an article on the 24 TSE at www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/tilt_and_shift_ts-e.html
You can also see the results you can get if you stitch 12 images (about half way down the page)

If you do want to modify the lens, it's the same as when I did it for my 90mm TSE www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/modify_canon_tilt-shift.html

I found the modification useful for when using the 90 for product shots, but I rarely use tilt with the 24 (interior and architectural work)

Given that it is much more difficult to correct lens distortions when using off-axis images, I rather use a better lens that I can correct using something like DxO, and use a pano head, and stitch the images using something like Stitcher.  Like most things it depends on what the image is going to be used for (and what the client wants) when picking a technique.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126123\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Keith.  I have a 45 TSE--I've used the 24 but for my shooting, prefer the 45.  I've read Jack Flesher's article about reorienting the TS--but have hesitated for 2 reasons--one being I usually prefer it in default--and 2--because I've never been absolutely sure about finding the right tool and have read some horror stories about stripping the screws LOL.  I didn't feel that the reorienting probably had anything to do with Andy's 3 over 3 except for being able to use the tilt for increased DOF perception.

I'll check out the article--somehow I felt it would be a combination of rotating and shifting but wasn't getting my head around it.  Since I don't do all that many panos,  I'd just like to know how to do it--without adding any other gear if possible for shifting around the nodal point, etc.  

Thanks so much--I haven't read the article yet but feel sure I will get what you are doing after reading it.  I rotate the lens quite a bit for various reasons--but haven't for this purpose.

Addendum:  I realized when I checked it out that I've seen your site several times and bookmarked it a good while ago.  I'm still not sure about the 12 shot stitch--wouldn't you lose a great deal of what would make if worthwhile if you cropped to a usable image --IOW--not because of vignetting but because of the stairstep effect.  I've done the 3 stitch many times--really easy with shift, --but, without using a pano head, etc.---are you saying that its as easy as just rotating and shifting to get a 3 over 3 (a 6 file stitch)?  I, of course, could just do 3 shots, rotate-do 3 more, rotate, etc.---but--(without having done it), would that not result in something with stitching problems?  However, I'll try it tomorrow with my 45 and see how it goes.

Diane

Diane

[Phuong]

picnic, this is what he said

Hi Diane!

I use the Really Right Stuff BH55 Ballhead:
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/items....c=BALLHEADS&Bc=

and the Pano Elements package:
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/... ...ms.asp?Cc=PanoPkgs&iTpStatus=0&Tp=&Bc=

and a Gitzo CF 1325 Carbon Fiber Tripod.

Can't say enough about the quality, and ease of use about the RRS stuff.

I use the 24 TS-E in up/down mode, to take several shots across AND up/down - it works great, and stitches effortlessly in Adobe PS CS3.

Holler if you have more questions - happy to help!

Andy

i don't know whta's more obvious than this. the element pkg is for single row stitch. he combines it with shift to produce 3xn panos (3 rows, multiple columns). in this example it's 3x3. the modding is really easy, anyone can do it in 10 seconds. however, it only helps changing DOF - it has nothing to do with 3xn stitch.

[picnic]

picnic, this is what he said

Hi Diane!

I use the Really Right Stuff BH55 Ballhead:
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/items....c=BALLHEADS&Bc=

and the Pano Elements package:
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/... ...ms.asp?Cc=PanoPkgs&iTpStatus=0&Tp=&Bc=

and a Gitzo CF 1325 Carbon Fiber Tripod.

Can't say enough about the quality, and ease of use about the RRS stuff.

I use the 24 TS-E in up/down mode, to take several shots across AND up/down - it works great, and stitches effortlessly in Adobe PS CS3.

Holler if you have more questions - happy to help!

Andy

i don't know whta's more obvious than this. the element pkg is for single row stitch. he combines it with shift to produce 3xn panos (3 rows, multiple columns). in this example it's 3x3. the modding is really easy, anyone can do it in 10 seconds. however, it only helps changing DOF - it has nothing to do with 3xn stitch.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126239\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Phuong, I do know how to do the modding and why---(I prefer default for 98% of my shooting as I do use tilt/swing a good deal)--I knew and stated above that it was irrelevant in the stitching.  The reason myself and others questioned it was because  he made a point of mentioning that it was modded after stating that it was a 3 over 3 stitch--and I think the question was--was he referring to just the reorienting--or had he done something else.  When I asked here---Andy had not come back to the thread--he doesn't post there too often and I didn't expect an answer any time soon (and in fact, I emailed him also and received a reply plus a link to his reply--I had not yet seen it).

What I wanted to know was---what other gear he used to do the pano and what others would use- (and if I would be able to piece together some of the other RRS stuff  and add it to my Precision Plus Package from RRS.  I don't plan on buying the Elements package).

Thanks for the reply.

Diane

[Ray]

I also do not see how the modification of the shift/tilt orientation helps in stitching 3x3 or 3x2 rows of images. With the default setting for these T&S lenses, the movement of the tilt is always at right angles to the direction of the shift.

So, if you are taking a wide panorama with camera horizontal, you can shift from left to right and at the same time tilt down to get the foreground in focus.

However, if the camera is vertical and you are using the shift to fit in the whole of a skyscraper, you cannot use the titlt to get better focus in the foreground. The tilt will only move from left to right.

The purpose of the modification, is to make the tilt move along the same axis as the shift. Such a modification would allow you to achieve better foreground focus in the second scenario, but prevent you from doing so in the first scenario.

I don't know how you would take 3x3 rows for stitching without introducing parallax errors. You could try using a tall tripod with column at maximum height for the first horizontal row, lower the column and tripod if necessary for the second row and so on. But I think you might have to tilt the entire camera also.

[keith_cooper]

While the shift is useful for expanding the FOV of the 24, I do find that those red lines on the shift index are not just there for show - there is a noticeable fall off of image quality after about 6mm of shift. For web and smaller prints I'll use the shift and stitch, but for higher resolution I prefer to stitch non shifted images that I can individually correct for lens distortions -before- stitching.

If I was going to the trouble of using a tripod for my landscape work (and I have a strong personal aversion to using them unless absolutely needed ;-) then I think it would be the pano head and good lens that was chosen before the tilt/shift. Most of my big pano prints (~9 feet long) were taken handheld with an IS lens and the result cropped out of lots of images stuck together :-)

[Ray]

While the shift is useful for expanding the FOV of the 24, I do find that those red lines on the shift index are not just there for show - there is a noticeable fall off of image quality after about 6mm of shift. )
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126307\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Absolutely! I found this out by trial and error after switching to the full frame 5D. This is not a problem, however, if you are using the T&S lenses with a cropped format DSLR such as the 20D.

Now that stitching programs like CS3's Photomerge and Autopano Pro can do an amazing job correcting for parallax errors, there seems to be little advantage in using the T&S lenses for stitching purposes.

[picnic]

I also do not see how the modification of the shift/tilt orientation helps in stitching 3x3 or 3x2 rows of images. With the default setting for these T&S lenses, the movement of the tilt is always at right angles to the direction of the shift.

So, if you are taking a wide panorama with camera horizontal, you can shift from left to right and at the same time tilt down to get the foreground in focus.

However, if the camera is vertical and you are using the shift to fit in the whole of a skyscraper, you cannot use the titlt to get better focus in the foreground. The tilt will only move from left to right.

The purpose of the modification, is to make the tilt move along the same axis as the shift. Such a modification would allow you to achieve better foreground focus in the second scenario, but prevent you from doing so in the first scenario.

I don't know how you would take 3x3 rows for stitching without introducing parallax errors. You could try using a tall tripod with column at maximum height for the first horizontal row, lower the column and tripod if necessary for the second row and so on. But I think you might have to tilt the entire camera also.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126300\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It doesn't---the reorienting just helps if you want, as you say, to tilt and shift in the same dirrection--I almost never do--but I'm shooting with a 45, different subjects, but then that's why I want to shoot some 3 x 3 panos with it--I don't plan on buying the 24.  The 3 flat stitch is often just the thing--I get about the same with that as I do with my  24mm width horizontally--being able to do a 3 x 3 at times would be nice at times in certain circumstances.  I have no desire to shoot big mutli (more than the 6) shot panos.

To shoot 3 x 3, you have to work with the nodal point if you are using a TS--exactly what Andy Williams did using one of the pano packages from RRS.  I already own parts of such a system and will utilize it plus any extra part I need to add.   I've also done handheld 3 stitch panos with the 45.

Diane

[Jack Flesher]

Now that stitching programs like CS3's Photomerge and Autopano Pro can do an amazing job correcting for parallax errors, there seems to be little advantage in using the T&S lenses for stitching purposes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126312\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree whole-heartedly -- Autopano is phenomenal and even the comparitively simple automerge in CS3 is now very, very good.  

For me, the advantage of the shift lens remains when doing a simple 2 or 3 frame stitch. The TSE capture method is very fast to use in the field and the TSE lenses are very good with respects to distortions, and hence the resultant frames most always stitch seamlessly. (I still use CS3 or Autopano to merge them.)  In the end I feel the TSE captures produce a slightly better final frame. However, more than 2 or 3 frames of capture and any good lens panned around the nodal point and one of the above programs is tough to beat. Also, if I didn't have my TSE's with me, I would not hesitate to use any of my lenses and the above programs for a 2 frame capture.

Cheers,

[picnic]

I agree whole-heartedly -- Autopano is phenomenal and even the comparitively simple automerge in CS3 is now very, very good. 

For me, the advantage of the shift lens remains when doing a simple 2 or 3 frame stitch. The TSE capture method is very fast to use in the field and the TSE lenses are very good with respects to distortions, and hence the resultant frames most always stitch seamlessly. (I still use CS3 or Autopano to merge them.)  In the end I feel the TSE captures produce a slightly better final frame. However, more than 2 or 3 frames of capture and any good lens panned around the nodal point and one of the above programs is tough to beat. Also, if I didn't have my TSE's with me, I would not hesitate to use any of my lenses and the above programs for a 2 frame capture.

Cheers,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I haven't tried Autopano but have seen it recommended several places.  I tried PHotomerge in PSCS3 after I got it--and what a difference.  Its now very good--good enough for me--but--I have not tried to use it for correcting parallax--just positioning and it was just terrific for that--even my handhelds.

I've worked out how to use only my RRS/PPP for correcting parallax without buying anything else--and I'll try Photomerge for correcting parallax too.  None of this is an issue with my 3 shot shift panos (I just use my marked L bracket if on tripod and have done a number of vertical and horizontal handhelds also), but using vertical shift and wanting to do 3 across (3 x 3) gave me a little pause LOL.  Now its resolved--and glad to hear others think Photomerge is so much better in PSCS3 also.  

Diane

[Phuong]

Phuong, I do know how to do the modding and why---(I prefer default for 98% of my shooting as I do use tilt/swing a good deal)--I knew and stated above that it was irrelevant in the stitching.  The reason myself and others questioned it was because  he made a point of mentioning that it was modded after stating that it was a 3 over 3 stitch--and I think the question was--was he referring to just the reorienting--or had he done something else.  When I asked here---Andy had not come back to the thread--he doesn't post there too often and I didn't expect an answer any time soon (and in fact, I emailed him also and received a reply plus a link to his reply--I had not yet seen it).

What I wanted to know was---what other gear he used to do the pano and what others would use- (and if I would be able to piece together some of the other RRS stuff  and add it to my Precision Plus Package from RRS.  I don't plan on buying the Elements package).

Thanks for the reply.

Diane
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Andy is most active at dgrin.com
[a href=\"http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=62383&highlight=tilt]http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=62383&highlight=tilt[/url]

the way he did it would definitely introduce parallax in the up/down orientation - and in that sense it is not better than using the ultimate package or other multirow pano heads. unless he figured out a way to move only the camera body and not the lens.

[Jack Flesher]

In many images, parallax is nearly a non-issue anyway...  Here are a couple of free-hand panos I did last week in Prague.  These were all hand-held pans as my tripod was liberated by airport security on the last leg of the trip! Being hand-held pans, parallax certainly exists in all of these to some degree, but I submit it exists in an unimportant area of the image and goes un-noticed.  

Even after downsizing, they are 1200 - 1450 pixels wide or so, so I'll give the links instead of embedding the images.  All were taken with a 5D and all were processed using CS3's automerge on my laptop. Note that these are quickly processed on a laptop as jpegs, so total image fidelity and color is not what it will be after processing on my desktop.

First image is 2 frames with  a 28/1.8: http://jack.cameraphile.org/gallery/view_p...rles_pano1_28x2

Second is 3 frames with a 50/1.4: http://jack.cameraphile.org/gallery/view_p...rles_pano2_50x3

This last one is 5 frames with the 50: http://jack.cameraphile.org/gallery/view_p...ague_Pano1_50x5

Cheers,

[picnic]

In many images, parallax is nearly a non-issue anyway...  Here are a couple of free-hand panos I did last week in Prague.  These were all hand-held pans as my tripod was liberated by airport security on the last leg of the trip! Being hand-held pans, parallax certainly exists in all of these to some degree, but I submit it exists in an unimportant area of the image and goes un-noticed. 

Even after downsizing, they are 1200 - 1450 pixels wide or so, so I'll give the links instead of embedding the images.  All were taken with a 5D and all were processed using CS3's automerge on my laptop. Note that these are quickly processed on a laptop as jpegs, so total image fidelity and color is not what it will be after processing on my desktop.

First image is 2 frames with  a 28/1.8: http://jack.cameraphile.org/gallery/view_p...rles_pano1_28x2

Second is 3 frames with a 50/1.4: http://jack.cameraphile.org/gallery/view_p...rles_pano2_50x3

This last one is 5 frames with the 50: http://jack.cameraphile.org/gallery/view_p...ague_Pano1_50x5

Cheers,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126529\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Beautiful (and I hope you have them in your gallery after you process further--I'd love to see them)--well, you made a believer of me LOL.  Not sure which one I like the best--the first one wowed me (and so glad to see someone else likes the 28 f/1..  It appears as though the day became more cloudy and the skies even more interesting for those shots --and wonder where you were to shoot--on a boat for 2 of them??  

I'm guessing that parallax will only rear its head in certain situations--and probably more likely for me since I don't usually have the opportunity to photograph these beautiful vistas.  However, I'm heading to our Blue Ridge Parkway and surrounds early tomorrow morning (weather permitting--I'd like a bit of valley fog)--so, have hopes I'll get to try out the 3 x 3 anyhow with the 45 but am also carrying the 28 and 50 and perhsps others.

Too bad about your tripod--did they actually just take it away?

Diane

[Jack Flesher]

It appears as though the day became more cloudy and the skies even more interesting for those shots --and wonder where you were to shoot--on a boat for 2 of them??  

I'm guessing that parallax will only rear its head in certain situations--

Too bad about your tripod--did they actually just take it away?

Hi Diane:

Thanks for the kind coments.  The first one was taken early morning and the other two were taken later that day after a storm blew in.  Prague is a city with several bridges, and I was on one for the first and third shots and just along side the river for the second.  

Parallax rears it's ugly head whenever there are subjects with more delineated near-far spatial relationship. Here the water in the foreground would be out of register, but it's moving pretty significantly between frames anyway so needs to be blended regardless.  Interesting though in the third image -- that boat in the lower left was in two of the frames and yet stitched perfectly with the building above and behind it... CS3 automatically eliminated one boat and did the blend mask around the other  

Yes they just took my tripod.  Unfortunatly I was carrying on because I had a tight connection in the Dusseldorf airport.  Had been through two other security checks prior to that and no problem.  At Dusseldorf they said no way and I did not have time to chek, so the pod went.  Howver, I did prevail upon them for a solution and they agreed to send it to "lost luggage" -- I figured, yeah right, dude wanted my carbon fiber pod...  10 days later when returning back through Dusseldorf, I had time, so went to lost luggage. Sure enough, there it was and I got it out of hock for 5 Euro   (Of course I checked luggage on the way home!)

As a PS, this 28 is a very decent lens.  I have owned others a few years ago that were not, so perhaps Canon has silently improved them of late.  For this trip I traveled with a pair of 5D's, the 28/1.8, 50/1.4 and 85/1.8. I specifically chose these lenses over the comparable L versions due to their lighter weight.  I also had the 16-35 with me, but only used it once and didn't really need it even then, so won't bother with it next time.  I wish the 24-70 were smaller and lighter for travel as I could get away with one body; the 24-105 isn't fast enough for me. No issue with light as high ISO on the Canon's is so good, but I do like to isolate with limited DOF and f4 won't cut it -- and even 2.8 is marginal.  In the end, I did surprisingly well with just the 28 and 50 as my main lenses, using the 85 enough to justify carrying it -- and used it in the f2 range quite a bit.  A 25-50/2 at 50% the weight of the 24-70 would be very cool for travel/street though  

Cheers,

[Ray]

Yes they just took my tripod.  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126581\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jack,
This is just amazing. Whadda you mean, 'they just took your tripod'? Why are you carrying it on the plane? I always put my tripod in the suitcase. It's not likely to get damaged, is it?

Nevertheless, without your tripod you manage to take some great shots that appear to have stitched well.

I hear that Europe is not experiencing a sunny summer and your panoramas confirm this. Did you find Prague particularly interesting?

[Jack Flesher]

Jack,
This is just amazing. Whadda you mean, 'they just took your tripod'? Why are you carrying it on the plane? I always put my tripod in the suitcase. It's not likely to get damaged, is it?

Nevertheless, without your tripod you manage to take some great shots that appear to have stitched well.

I hear that Europe is not experiencing a sunny summer and your panoramas confirm this. Did you find Prague particularly interesting?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126587\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Ray:

Yes, I had it in my carry-on suitcase and they said no way this can go on the plane -- it was irrelevant that I had carried it thusly on two other flights before arriving in Dusseldorf.  I would have checked it if I had time, but my flight was at the gate already.

I was surprised that the hand pans stitched so well too -- thanks.  Pretty amazing when you think about it, and am optimistic about printing a few of those up larger!

The weather in Prague was variable cloudyness with a few light showers, but mostly *great* for photography -- I hate clear blue sky in all my images! We were going to go to Amsterdam and Brugge as well, but due to the poor weather in both we extended in Prague and toured some of the Southern Czech Republic instead, then spent an extra day in Dusseldorf on the end.

Cheers,

[keith_cooper]

I was surprised that the hand pans stitched so well too -- thanks.  Pretty amazing when you think about it, and am optimistic about printing a few of those up larger!

Not that surprising if you are careful and are prepared to crop out/repair any slight mismatch at the edges.

Most of my larger pano prints are from hand held sets of images.  It just takes a bit of practice rotating yourself about the nodal point of the lens ;-)

[Jack Flesher]

It just takes a bit of practice rotating yourself about the nodal point of the lens ;-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126622\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yeah, I took some time to try and pivot around the camera instead of just twisting at my waist