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Author Topic: Printers  (Read 6388 times)

mlr

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« on: June 19, 2007, 04:11:24 pm »

I currently have an epson 2200.  I do some black and white and the 2200 isn't great for that.  I have epson printers for the past 17 years.  I am considering a new printer and can't seem to make up my mind which printer to purchase.  Both the epson 3800 and the canon i__ 5000 look like they could be IT.  Can anyone help me with a decision that has been in the making for over 6 months??  I use a PC w/ Windows XP.  I also do some 4 X 6 prints but can use another printer for that.  Is there a good recent comparison of these two printers or does anyone have something to weigh in with to help me?  ml
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Dale_Cotton

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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2007, 04:53:47 pm »

I'm not aware of any wide carriage inkjet (17"+) that doesn't have serious downsides. Because of the never-ending story of my problems with my Epson 4000 and clogging I've looked at the field from time to time. What follows is my very idiosyncratic take on what's available and it comes with no guarantees for accuracy:

All current Epson models require ink and time wastage to switch from matte to photo black ink. They also have large numbers of posters complaining of frequently clogged nozzles. They also quaff liberal quantities of ink that costs its weight in platinum. But image quality is excellent.

The Canon IPF5000 has none of those problems but is, I believe, Canon's very first entry in the wide carriage pigment market and has its own set of teething issues - see the 5000 wiki for details. The biggest single issue seems to be Canon's reputation for not giving a dang about any customer or group of customers who aren't listed in Who's Who. But image quality is reportedly excellent. There is a newly announced 5100, but I don't know that there's enough information to know how much of the 5000's problems have been addressed.

The HP Z3100 is intriguing but is ultra-expensive, is also a first entry, and also has some teething issues related to profiling, if I understand correctly, that you can read about in any number of threads on this forum with Z3100 in the title.

If I had to buy now, I'd opt for the 5000 or 5100 but would buy from a local dealer with a bend-over-backwards service reputation. The only reason I still have this infernal 4000 is that I'd much rather not buy now.
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John Hollenberg

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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2007, 06:56:50 pm »

Tough question.  There is a comparison chart on the Wiki FAQ that might help you make your decision.  For long panos, you would need the ipF5000 (I just printed a 14 X 42 inch image that looks fantastic!).  I have grown rather fond of the roll feed on the iPF5000 and have pretty much exclusively switched to using Epson Premium Luster in rolls.  The premium luster has about the widest gamut and excellent dmax, so I have continued to use it in place of Canon papers.  If you switch between Photo and Matte Black frequently (I don't) that would be another reason to go for the iPF5000.  The motorized roll feed and cutter are first rate once you get the Roll Feed Unit fixed (if you get one of the defective ones).

On the other hand, you know Epsons, so very easy to get started.  Much smaller footprint in terms of size.  Image quality is very close I would say.  From what I have read, the clogging problem is quite a bit better with the 3800 than previous printers.  Head life is probably not a concern with the Epson, whereas for the Canon the heads are only guaranteed for 10 trillion droplets each (about 5 liters total, or just over 3 sets of ink) or one year.  While there haven't been many head failures on the iPF5000 yet, a set of heads costs $1200, or basically as much as a new printer.  I would rank this as the current #1 concern re: the Canon.

Feel free to drop by the Wiki and ask other owners for additional opinions.

--John
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Leping

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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2007, 07:07:35 pm »

I never have clogged nozzles with my Epson 3800, even I print once a week or once every other week quite often.

My findings with my first serious printer so far is, on gloss paper color prints will never look as good as these chemical prints out of Lightjets, Chromiras, and LaserLabs.  They lack color saturation, the dynamic range, the depth and the 3D feeling, and the smoothness, especially in the shadows.

However, black and white is totally another story.  The Canon's and HP's (I did try them out) are deadly neutral.  Great, but neutral black and white prints are dead prints.  The Epson ABW can add tint easily, and with Roy's QTR RIP you have infinite control over almost everything, but QTR is only available for the Epsons.  I made my own custom linearized QTR curves with an Eye-One Pro, and with different color blending for the highlights, midtones, and shadows I am now getting prints that look alive (in comparisons to the pure neutral ones), and almost match Richard Lohmann's hextone results.  Especially on the new Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl 320 (gloss) and the old Photo Rag 308 (matte).  Even without the custom profiles and curves the canned Epson and QTR profiles and curves work almost the same so the unit to unit variation must be quite minor.

Richard has been testing for Harman/Ilford the new baryta gloss paper on Epsons, that will hit the market soon.  He said the prints look and feel really close to the fiber based chemical prints.  Unlike many unqualified assertions Richard teaches B&W darkroom twice a week, and certainly knows what he is talking about.  After some time no doubt both HP and Canon will catch up, but for now, only Epson has mature products in the market even they do have imperfections.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 07:15:39 pm by LEPING »
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Leping Zha
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Tango_01

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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 12:36:48 am »

Quote
I currently have an epson 2200.  I do some black and white and the 2200 isn't great for that.  I have epson printers for the past 17 years.  I am considering a new printer and can't seem to make up my mind which printer to purchase.  Both the epson 3800 and the canon i__ 5000 look like they could be IT.  Can anyone help me with a decision that has been in the making for over 6 months??  I use a PC w/ Windows XP.  I also do some 4 X 6 prints but can use another printer for that.  Is there a good recent comparison of these two printers or does anyone have something to weigh in with to help me?  ml
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123809\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


My experience with the e 3800 is that it does not have any serious downsides. It might be tricky to feed some specialty papers or so I've read, but I didn't experience a single quirk so far. It's frugal with ink; it's frugal when you change blacks; it doesn't clog -with over 400 prints I have yet to do a nozzle clean --; it's absolutely predictable once you have your color management worked out, in fact I used to do a test in a 4x6 before printing big but now I just go ahead with a 17x25 without previous tests (on papers I know).

Picture quality is on par with the best printers on the market.

If I had to buy again I would go with the 3800 without doubt. The only thing that would make me hesitate is a future 24" printer with the same technology of the 3800. Printing large as I've learned is addictive.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 04:15:49 am »

Quote
However, black and white is totally another story.  The Canon's and HP's (I did try them out) are deadly neutral.  Great, but neutral black and white prints are dead prints. 
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The HP Z3100 Advanced B&W controls are possibly a bit more difficult to find than on an Epson K3 model but for the rest as feature rich as the Epson equivalent. So sepia, split tone, cold, warm, it is all there. The best part of the Quadtone RIP the B&W ICC profiles can be used as well with the HP ABW driver though there are some issues with Qimage's BPC that I have reported to Mike and Roy. Better not use the BPC with perceptual rendering in that case. I'm checking best B&W method for my Z3100 these days. I doubt the Canon iPF5000/5100 lacks an Advanced B&W mode but I'm not familiar with that model.

Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 04:35:23 am »

Quote
My experience with the e 3800 is that it does not have any serious downsides. It might be tricky to feed some specialty papers or so I've read, but I didn't experience a single quirk so far. It's frugal with ink; it's frugal when you change blacks;
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123874\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A typical Epson user perspective I guess: with 40 changes of the black MK>PK>MK>PK etc you will have lost 1.5 Black carts = 120 ML. That's much better than any black change on the Epson wide formats (Epson 4000 is the exception) but a lot more ink than on the Canon or HP models with two black heads. Anyone who changes between matte and black once a week or more should think about that. For the rest it is hard to beat a HP on ink use.

Ernst Dinkla

www.pigment-print.com
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booksmartstudio

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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 02:40:46 pm »

I own both so here is my rundown:

[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']Epson 3800:[/span]
Pros:
-less problems in general, less paper scuffing
-ease of use because you are used to an Epson
-no paper selection needed in printer
-Much easier to manually load than the ipf 5000
-You can carry it yourself
-Excellent Epson tech support
-Head does not need to be replaced
-Probably a few more I forget
-Epson has been making inkjet printers for much longer and has more experience
-Not a first generation printer, many kinks have been worked out already
Cons:
-No Roll paper
-switching between photo and matte black still used ink
-not able to change out head if it gets clogged
-Slower than ipf 5000
-Smaller gamut than 5000
-Not considered a "pro" printer (designed inexpensively, and to fit on your desktop)
-No 12 bit printing (means better gradients)
-Higher cost in paper (roll us less expensive)
-no cutter

Probably some more, but I hope this helps.  
Good Luck!
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Kory Gunnasen
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BarryS

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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2007, 03:32:16 pm »

I have the 3800 and it's been an outstanding printer for me.  It paid for itself in print sales in a few months.  I like the ability to run very small prints, so I can test prints on different papers and experiment without using a lot of paper and ink.  Epson easily has the best customer support and they class the 3800 as a pro printer, so most in-warranty issues are solved by shipping a new printer in 24 hours.  I haven't had any issues with mine, but support is important to me.  If you've waited this long, you might as well wait for the ipf 5100 to come out.  Canon will be addressing some of the 1st gen bugs and it should be a really nice piece of gear--with less chance of needing customer support.  The ink/head costs are probably a wash between the printers.  Between the 3800 and the ipf 5100, and the new HP I don't think you can make a bad choice.
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digitaldog

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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2007, 06:01:27 pm »

John, when will we see a Native plug-in from Canon?

I have some Luster roll paper coming, I will try it out in the 5000 (and 4800).
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Scott Martin

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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2007, 02:13:48 pm »

Quote
when will we see a Native plug-in from Canon?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124264\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just got off the phone with them and I hear we should have it "quite soon." I can't blame them for not wanting to provide a more specific deadline.

FYI, Canon has really been good about listening to constructive feedback about support and website issues. They are moving forward to address these things but fundamental change does take in a company that size.
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David White

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« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2007, 02:22:41 pm »

Quote
I just got off the phone with them and I hear we should have it "quite soon." I can't blame them for not wanting to provide a more specific deadline.

FYI, Canon has really been good about listening to constructive feedback about support and website issues. They are moving forward to address these things but fundamental change does take in a company that size.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124399\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Scott,

How do go about providing constructive feedback and suggestions, at a level where it will do some good, to Canon re the ipf5000?
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David White

Scott Martin

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« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2007, 05:22:47 pm »

I'll respond to you offlist with some contact info for you.
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Scott Martin
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jpgentry

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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2007, 11:59:04 pm »

Had a great experience with Canon support last month.  A black ink cart would show empty every so often.  When I would take it out and re-insert it I could print again.  A few weeks later got the same ink empty message.  Called canon and no questions asked they sent me out a replacement.  Was here in two days.  Didn't even ask for a credit card to insure I sent back the old one.  Of course I did anyway...
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ed j

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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2007, 12:17:08 am »

Quote
I currently have an epson 2200.  I do some black and white and the 2200 isn't great for that.  I have epson printers for the past 17 years.  I am considering a new printer and can't seem to make up my mind which printer to purchase.  Both the epson 3800 and the canon i__ 5000 look like they could be IT.  Can anyone help me with a decision that has been in the making for over 6 months??  I use a PC w/ Windows XP.  I also do some 4 X 6 prints but can use another printer for that.  Is there a good recent comparison of these two printers or does anyone have something to weigh in with to help me?  ml
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123809\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i have 9600 and the 1800. i did have a 2200 sold it and bought the 9600.

if u have the extra $ i would go for the 4800  or the 7600 and bypass the 3800

i was thinking of the canon 5000 but i read on this site  the inks are not quite smuge and water proof as epsons are.

ed
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mkress65

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« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2007, 02:11:09 am »

Any idea what paper is having problems w/ water fastness?  I've really only be using Red River papers w/ my ipf5000 and have found prints on their papers to be completely water proof -- tested by holding the paper under our faucet for 5 seconds at full force and then drying off w/ a paper towel.  After letting the paper dry out, I could not tell where the water had  been.  Now the Canon 190gsm satin did have problems, but that's pretty cheap paper, so it wasn't a big surprise.

I've got some other sample papers coming in (Moab, Illford, Hahn, etc.) and I'll check those too, but I keep hearing people comment on its lack of water fastness, but so far I haven't found any specifics.

Thanks,

Matt

Quote
i have 9600 and the 1800. i did have a 2200 sold it and bought the 9600.

if u have the extra $ i would go for the 4800  or the 7600 and bypass the 3800

i was thinking of the canon 5000 but i read on this site  the inks are not quite smuge and water proof as epsons are.

ed
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125083\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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mkress65

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« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2007, 02:20:48 am »

I have a hard time equating basic website maintenance w/ "fundamental change."  Same goes for addressing some long standing issues such as the lack of a black point compensation for relative colormetric setting on the plug in.  That's not a fundamental change to the company, its  a programming change to the plug in; I do not understand why fixing these issues would require fundamental change w/in Canon.

I will agree that their poor communication w/ the consumers about these issues requires a fundamental change to their organization, and that change can't come soon enough.  I'm not knocking the tech support guys that answer the phones -- my issue is w/ the execs and their lack of response to issues raised (even in a courteous and constructive fashion.)  I'm guessing if you have an official contact, you are already considered worthy of their communication.

To their credit, they did stop the nonsense about not replacing defective starter carts and have been responsive on fixing the broken RFUs, but I haven't heard yet of anyone who has an RFU that went bad after the warranty period to see if Canon will fix the known defect for free or if they will charge for it.

For the Mac users out there, I do hope the UB is available soon.  Its been a long time in coming -- hopefully it will work for the 5000 as well as the 5100/6100.

Matt

Quote
I just got off the phone with them and I hear we should have it "quite soon." I can't blame them for not wanting to provide a more specific deadline.

FYI, Canon has really been good about listening to constructive feedback about support and website issues. They are moving forward to address these things but fundamental change does take in a company that size.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124399\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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