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Author Topic: Z3100 complaints  (Read 4729 times)

Geoff Wittig

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Z3100 complaints
« on: June 18, 2007, 09:14:48 am »

If your only source of information on HP's Z3100 series printers was this forum, you'd probably come away thinking they are deeply, even fatally flawed. I am amazed by the anger and bitterness of many posts complaining about various problems or defects attributed to these products. Yes, I understand the frustration that comes from laying down something approaching $5,000 (U.S.) for a big purchase only to find it has some issues. I own one, and it's likely the last printer I'll be buying for a long time. I've struggled with some of its quirks and cursed after seeing head strikes (that were mostly my fault.) But really, people.

I think folks should take a deep breath and look at the big picture.
I have no affiliation with HP, I'm not a photo professional, and I have no secret knowledge. However, I have been printing digitally for about 10 years, going way back to the original HP Photosmart "Pizza oven" printer and a balky Epson 1200. My first large format printer was Epson's 7600. Perhaps people have forgotten, but when that printer came out it was initially almost unusable due to abysmally bad linearity and difficulty with profiling. In my case I didn't get really good results with it until Bill Atkinson's profiles became available, after wasting a ton of expensive ink. Then there was the dreaded black ink swap problem, which meant users had to stick with matte black on fine art paper, or photo black on photo paper, or blow something approaching $100 in ink on the changeover.

Now we have a printer that comes with a built-in spectrophotometer and automated profiling system that actually works, that has matte black ink and photo black ink simultaneously installed, that produces prints looking every bit as good as those from an expertly used and maintained Epson 7800/9800 with a lot less effort, and that provides quadblack BW prints on fine art paper right out of the box. I recently made a series of BW prints on Hahnemuhle photo rag satin using a profile generated by the printer and the HP black & white driver mode. These are without question the best BW prints I have ever made, by any method. They look like they are etched in steel, with an excellent D-max and clean tonal separation from shadow to highlight. My color prints look equally good, and I couldn't be happier with the results.

I will readily concede that this forum is visited by many posters with far more expertise than my modest skills, and I can appreciate that for professionals requiring absolute color fidelity to the last percentage point there may be issues with the Z printers. But for the devoted amateur or budding "fine art" printer, they are fabulous machines. Don't let the overwhelming negative ambience in this forum put you off.

I remember the first six months with my Epson 7600; it wasn't pretty either.
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SeanPuckett

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Z3100 complaints
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2007, 10:07:57 am »

Indeed -- during the tenure of the previous firmware I was hardly visible on this forum at all except to respond with knowledge I had.  The machine was so reliable and so perfect for my needs there was nothing to say.  Complaints are far more visible here than praise, simply because when things are working we're off making use of them.

I don't think I've been an alarmist.  I am simply reporting what I have found (with visual samples) and my inability to figure out why or how to rectify it.  That [some] others report similar issues makes me feel more confident that I'm am not making a worflow mistake or having unreasonable expectations, but the fact that you [and others] are perfectly happy with the printer makes me feel more confident that I didn't choose incorrectly and things will be untangled -- sooner or later.

I don't want my problems to scare anyone off the printer.  I do want them to be fixed (or for my error to be uncovered), though, because they're quite troublesome to my workflow and income.
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rdonson

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Z3100 complaints
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2007, 10:39:44 am »

Quote
I don't want my problems to scare anyone off the printer.  I do want them to be fixed (or for my error to be uncovered), though, because they're quite troublesome to my workflow and income.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123521\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well said, Sean!  

Since HP doesn't monitor their own forums but do watch these we've found it vital to air problems here.  There are real problems and shortcomings with the firmware and drivers and APS.  I'm still hopeful that HP will work through the issues and we'll end up with an outstanding printer.  I don't regret purchasing the Z3100 at all.  I do wish we had some way where HP would acknowledge the issues and let us know that they're working on them.  I wish they were far more open.

One of the very encouraging signs that I've seen here is an incredible amount of sharing of information and help as we chase down the problems for each other.  Much thanks to Michael for providing this environment.
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Ron

Roscolo

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Z3100 complaints
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2007, 01:43:07 pm »

I can only speak for myself and I've had no problems with the z3100 at all...knock on wood. The more I use the z, the more I appreciate what went into it's design and functionality.

That said, I certainly do appreciate the posts of those with issues. Sometimes those issues appear to be related to people putting the machine to a greater test than I have yet. So reading them as the problems / solutions unfold is a great help to the rest of us so we can avoid a bad practice or know the solution if/when we encounter a similar problem.

I'm glad I found this site. These are some of the best pro photo forums on the web. Reminds me a bit of the excellent Asus forums. I just built a new system with a pretty loaded Asus motherboard and the Asus forums are far more helpful than any level of Asus support.

That motherboard analogy is not unlike the z3100. On the Asus forum for the mobo I built my system around, there were users with problems, problems. It doesn't take long to learn that most of the problems were really related to what different individuals were trying to achieve with the mobo and what applications they were using their system for. And the vast majority seem to get it right in the end after some tweaking. Of course, the people who don't need any help or have any problems don't usually show up in the forums. I think the z is the same...depending on what you are trying to do with it, you may find some things that could be tweaked better here and there. I haven't found many. I haven't found any relating to image quality for the work I am printing and the materials I am printing on.

The z3100 is my first HP printer. I've said it enough, but it blows all of the Epsons I have used away for my uses. If HP stays on top of things and supports this printer as needs for tweaks are identified, HP will have a customer for life. Conversely, if HP were to neglect the support of the z3100, the opposite would be the case. Right now, it's looking good.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 01:44:26 pm by Roscolo »
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neil snape

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Z3100 complaints
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2007, 02:59:37 pm »

There have been too many misguided posts for my liking but there have also been so many posts that show problems that seek a solution, some of which have been provided for.
We are all learning from this experience, and it is one that is quite different and new. The Z is not just about image quality, it has a lot of features that are innovative, up to outstanding.
Bearing through the frustrations when problems are encountered can show in postings by users at times to be a bit on the edge. That in most cases is excusable, after all if it weren't for this forum we would feel pretty alone at times. So it's as much venting but also showing the interest to be associated with one another.
I do think in the end it will all work out, so hang tight while solutions come up.
I'm having a bad day today but it's not the end of the world either. Over more than one year I've been printing away with great success in most every corner. What bugs etc were found are mostly going to stay within the circles where they belong. I only started using the printer a few days ago as any other user would. Hence my frustration with some of the things I would have thought fixed that have no place in a shipping model. Also at the end of the testing, The cord is cut, I have no more power to try as I might to improve the Z for users as before.
I suppose if there is a good balance between posters, the forums like this one or Ernst's could become the staple of HP LFP as is the Epson Wide-Format is to LFP users. The only thing that changed is now Canon and HP are now in there in a big way.
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gstanley75

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Z3100 complaints
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2007, 03:15:41 pm »

Just like any new technology, there are good and bad points.  I have been a professional photographer for 30+ years and just made a complete move to digital.  During my days I experienced many migrations from e4 to e6, fiber to rc paper, tray to machine processing, etc etc.  In each move, the quality often did an initial nose dive while we learned the finer points of the new technology.  Sometimes in never came out of the nose dive, but more often than not, we were suprised by a new and better way to image... I mean photograph.  What ever.

I have been using a new z3100 for two weeks and continue to be amazed at the quality I am able to obtain. I am using the latest drivers on Mas OS 10.4xxx via ethernet using two MacBook Pros that I have calibrated the screens.  I am printing from Aperature and from Photoshop CS2... CS 3 on the way and again continue to be suprised at the quality.  I am making prints successfullly form scans from a Nikon Coolscan 5000 and images from a Nikon D200.

So far I have used HP, Ilford Gallerie and Epson printer paper and they all work, and the auto calibration and ICC building tools via the densitomerter works wonderful.  It is so easy compared to the daily reads I used to do on an old Greytag checking E6 color control stips, I am thrilled with the time savings etc.

I do have one little nit to pick which I imaging comes from user inexperience.  It seems everytime I print, the image ends up aligned in the way that uses the most paper... ( I don't want to think this is an HP revenue enhancement feature) but choose to thing I am missing some simple step in telling the HP print driver which ways to position an image.  Any hints from you more experienced users would be appreciated.

gstanley75@aol.com
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neil snape

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Z3100 complaints
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2007, 03:32:47 pm »

I think for image placement Qimage is excellent for PC users, and for Mac when Colorbyte finalises ImagePrint V7 it is and does what it should.
Otherwise save out every preset you can think of, with job settings that place the image where you need.
You can use the HP Print Preview on Mac, also there is a pro print plug in that should work, but it's not yet for Windows either.
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ricgal

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Z3100 complaints
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2007, 07:21:15 pm »

Quote
I do have one little nit to pick which I imaging comes from user inexperience.  It seems everytime I print, the image ends up aligned in the way that uses the most paper... ( I don't want to think this is an HP revenue enhancement feature) but choose to thing I am missing some simple step in telling the HP print driver which ways to position an image.  Any hints from you more experienced users would be appreciated.

gstanley75@aol.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123586\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I too have had some issues on this front-  clicking the rotate 90 degrees thingy in the layout dialogue in the driver usualy fixes it but,  certainly with the previous driver, not always
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rdonson

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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2007, 07:28:36 pm »

Quote
I too have had some issues on this front-  clicking the rotate 90 degrees thingy in the layout dialogue in the driver usualy fixes it but,  certainly with the previous driver, not always
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123622\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yeah, that's a good one.  I wasted a few sheets of 8.5x11 before I caught on to that.  Its in an odd place in the driver too.  Makes it look like that feature is only for rolls.

Figuring out where the margins are exactly on letter size paper is a trick as well.
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Ron

marcsitkin

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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2007, 11:04:50 am »

This HPZ3100 printer is about number 15 for me over the past 12 years.

My typical response to new printer purchases is initial amazment of the improvements made in each generation, followed by an equal amazment of the things that were not done right in it's implimentation.

After a period of time, I learn what the printer can do, can't do, and what I have to do to get the results I want. And over time, it pays for itself, makes me a profit, some of which goes to the next generation of printers.

Along the way I waste paper, ink, time and money. It's just part of the process. Could some of this waste be eliminated-sure. But in the rush to get a product to market, the buyer is always the beta-tester.

Of the 15 machines I've had, only two had to be returned as unusable. One was a $150,000 printer that cost me $15,000 in refunds I had to return to a customer for prints failing. Never got that money back, but I kept the customer and my business went on. The other printer couldn't make a print with a 90 degree window edge. It was exchanged for an HP5000 7 years ago, which is still running well today, and has produced over $1,000,000 of output. And I've spent a total of $800 on maintaining it. Not a bad deal.

I'd suggest that a bit of patience and time spent learning about the machine you buy is time well spent. And along the way, don't forget to marvel over the beauty of the images these machines can produce. And don't forget to get out and make new images!

Marc Sitkin
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 Marc Sitkin www.digitalmomentum

rdonson

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Z3100 complaints
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2007, 12:17:33 pm »

Well said, Marc.  I not only marvel at the prints I'm producing on the Z3100 I'm very impressed with the engineering of the printer.  It more closely resembles a printing system than any printer I've seen or used before.  The SDK for the printer is very broad giving a lot of people the opportunity to develop solutions on the platform.



Then I look at the construction and see a very well thought out, modular design.  For example, we may complain about how clunky it is to feed sheets into it but I also think the physical design lends itself to replacing the current guide with something else pretty easily.
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Ron

SeanPuckett

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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2007, 01:29:56 pm »

Argh.  I didn't want to know the printer has a whole bunch of SDKs.  My time is fully booked already as it is.  Now I will repeat to myself "i will not go to HP's developer site" about a hundred times.
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rdonson

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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2007, 01:36:28 pm »

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Argh.  I didn't want to know the printer has a whole bunch of SDKs.  My time is fully booked already as it is.  Now I will repeat to myself "i will not go to HP's developer site" about a hundred times.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123781\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

    The point of SDKs is that others will do neat things with it that we can buy.  I quit programming as a bad habit 10 years ago.  I have no desire to pick it up again.
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Ron

neil snape

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Z3100 complaints
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2007, 01:43:25 pm »

Quote
Argh.  I didn't want to know the printer has a whole bunch of SDKs.  My time is fully booked already as it is.  Now I will repeat to myself "i will not go to HP's developer site" about a hundred times.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123781\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hence the post where I said if you had the SDK for the profiler.....
As if you can make a UI for Argyll you'd have a great profiler with the best profiles bar none....
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