Topic: Leaf vs. Phase? Big difference? (Read 7540 times)

J Photo · « **on:** June 17, 2007, 12:44:31 pm »

Hi,
I've been lurking on this forum for a couple months now and finally decided to make a handle. My question is, is there a big difference between the two? LCD screen doesn't matter to me. I thought I read some where that they used the same ccd? (I could be mistaken) I'm looking to get either an Aptus 65s or a P30+. I guess I am wondering if I should expect a big differece between the two or are they compareable imaging wise? Thanks in advance

Jesse

RicAgu · « **Reply #1 on:** June 17, 2007, 01:38:34 pm »

Different chips.

PhaseOne uses the Kodak chip that Hasselblad uses

Leaf uses the Dalsa chip that Sinar and Mamiya use.

Don't know about the A65s but the A75 was pretty amazing and now that V11 works well it seem to be good. V10 was a nightmare.

PhaseOne is bullet proof and the files look great. I have not seen the screen on the new + Series. From what has been posted here the P25+ is great and the p30+ If you need the higher ISO would be the best bet.

Best of Luck

J Photo · « **Reply #2 on:** June 17, 2007, 04:46:56 pm »

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I've seen files from both and both being excellent. Knowing that, I'll prolly pick up a P30+ unless I can get a better deal on a 65s.

Jesse

ZacharyHH · « **Reply #3 on:** June 17, 2007, 08:43:18 pm »

uhhh I thought Leaf used Kodak sensors?

Kodak: leaf aptus

bradleygibson · « **Reply #4 on:** June 17, 2007, 09:50:17 pm »

That *would* make sense...

But no, even though they're owned by Kodak, they do indeed use the Dalsa chip. Never could quite figure that one out either!

-Brad

Quote

uhhh I thought Leaf used Kodak sensors?

Kodak: leaf aptus
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RicAgu · « **Reply #5 on:** June 17, 2007, 09:52:41 pm »

Kodak bought Leaf but they were using Dalsa before they were bought, so Kodak didn't make them change (YET). They still use Dalsa chips, which I do find wierd.

But to each his own.

You can probably find a better deal on an Aptus 75 if you want the full frame chip size.

The P30+ are the hot item at the mooment and are hard to get a hold of.

Dustbak · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2007, 01:36:54 am »

They should be comparable IQ wise however when using camera movements the Aptus might be the better choice.

The P30 uses microlenses and as I understand it that can cause problems when used with cameras with movements.

I am currently in the same position, choosing between P30 and A65. I use movements so lean towards the A65. Also because I have been using Leaf for the last years so I know how to get the most out of these things.

yaya · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2007, 03:12:05 am »

Quote

Hi,
I've been lurking on this forum for a couple months now and finally decided to make a handle. My question is, is there a big difference between the two? LCD screen doesn't matter to me. I thought I read some where that they used the same ccd? (I could be mistaken) I'm looking to get either an Aptus 65s or a P30+. I guess I am wondering if I should expect a big differece between the two or are they compareable imaging wise? Thanks in advance

Jesse
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Welcome Jesse,

IQ wise, nothing will tell you more than a side-by-side test in your own environment, taking shots of the same subject with the same lighting on your camera of choice.

Then you should compare the files on screen but also in print (if you have the facility).
Look at deep shadow detail and highlight detail, preferably in a high-key image.
Check sharpness (not sharpening) and look at the transitions from 3/4 to full blown highlights and from 1/4 to Blacks.
Look at the 3 channels (R,G, and compare the amount of information Vs amount of noise per channel - the one that shows more detail in the Red and Green channels will translate better into CMYK output.

So if you happen to be in an area where you can find dealers of both products, ask them to come around and spend the time with you testing and going over the workflow and software.

Best of luck and enjoy!!!

Yair

olaf · « **Reply #8 on:** June 18, 2007, 03:58:12 am »

Hi Jesse
I'm going through exactly the same process and have chosen the P30+. I agree with the comment that nothing beats a side by side test in your own environment. But to add my two cents worth.
I found that there is a big difference in the practical hands on use of the backs. The simple 4 button set up on Phase One is quick to learn and operate. The Leaf allows you to do many more settings via the stylus interface. But for my particular way of working, outdoors, I'd rather simplify the controls on the back. I also don't need camera movements and will benefit from the 1.3 multiplication factor.
Additionally here in the UK, Phase One is well established, their Value Added package is more expensive but includes a good warranty and a deal on Mamiya stuff.
I think your original question was more about image quality but as I found them pretty similar, I voted for Phase One. Hope this helps
Olaf

nicolaasdb · « **Reply #9 on:** June 18, 2007, 05:20:52 am »

I did the side by side test (backs and reps!!) and Leaf won hands down.....I found for my kind of work (beauty, fashion, and scantily clad women mostly) that the Phase back was to sharp (digital looking) for me. I liked the many option I could input in the back.....like the name of the shoot and copyright (because I always forget to do this later on in the computer) but then again I like gadgets and a large LCD screen (which useless outside) ...but great inside! I like the leaf system because it gives me film like quality output...BUT it is not all sunshine working with the Leaf back.....there are a lot of "hard-resets" during a day of shooting...but never the ones that make you lose images....and the back is very slow starting up and slows down a lot during shooting. The Phase one resp was an A..H..E!! didn't know what he was talking about and couldn't get his dumb software to work.....AND..the told me flatout that I had to change my workflow to be able to use Phase backs...RIGHT!! Sure mister Phase...I will obey and do what you order me to do!! NOT!! the leaf rep..was responsive to my questions and had answers. He told me that there was no need to use the leaf software if I didn't want to and that I could keep everything the way it was..he also provided me with a back and camera until my back was available, which saved me about 5K in rental fees.

awofinden · « **Reply #10 on:** June 18, 2007, 06:21:54 am »

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I did the side by side test (backs and reps!!) and Leaf won hands down.....I found for my kind of work (beauty, fashion, and scantily clad women mostly) that the Phase back was to sharp (digital looking) for me. I liked the many option I could input in the back.....like the name of the shoot and copyright (because I always forget to do this later on in the computer) but then again I like gadgets and a large LCD screen (which useless outside) ...but great inside! I like the leaf system because it gives me film like quality output...BUT it is not all sunshine working with the Leaf back.....there are a lot of "hard-resets" during a day of shooting...but never the ones that make you lose images....and the back is very slow starting up and slows down a lot during shooting. The Phase one resp was an A..H..E!! didn't know what he was talking about and couldn't get his dumb software to work.....AND..the told me flatout that I had to change my workflow to be able to use Phase backs...RIGHT!! Sure mister Phase...I will obey and do what you order me to do!! NOT!! the leaf rep..was responsive to my questions and had answers. He told me that there was no need to use the leaf software if I didn't want to and that I could keep everything the way it was..he also provided me with a back and camera until my back was available, which saved me about 5K in rental fees.
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We voted on our presedent based on personality and that didnt seem to work out so well, I also wouldnt buy a back based on personality of the reps. Did you try turning off the sharpening on the phase back? I think theres a good reason why leaf don't really push there own software. Phase's capture one software is bulletproof and with regard to the hard resets on the leaf, I've owned my phase for 4 months now and have never had a single crash of the back or the software. That kind of thing gets a bit annoying and embarrassing in real world situations. If you did turn off sharpening and it was still too sharp for you then I understand the leaf wouold be the obvious choice.

yaya · « **Reply #11 on:** June 18, 2007, 07:21:34 am »

There's a great difference between sharpness and sharpening.

If the RAW file is naturally soft(er) and lacks details then it'll require more sharpening which tends to create a "digital" look.
If the RAW file is naturally sharp and shows more detail, then there's less sharpening required so it allows to keep the natural "film-like" look without being soft.

The Dalsa sensor tends to give sharper and more detailed images in most common conditions compared to the Kodak.

I hope this helps

Yair

pss · « **Reply #12 on:** June 18, 2007, 02:14:49 pm »

i went from a valeo 17 to a P20 to a P30.....i agree that phase files used to have a "digital" look, which is why went with the valeo at first....but that changed and i feel that while leaf might give you a "more film like look" so can phase if you know how (which isn't hard at all).....but the phase can also give you a supersqueakyclean look that leaf can't IMO....

i think the P30 is the best back ever....if you consider, resolution, imagersize, senitivity, speed, workflow (not only in C1) qulity f the files out of the back, super relyable!!!!! (ask anyone) all for a reasonable price....it is hard to beat...i am sure that other backs can mach some of those things, but i don't think there is one that can compete with the whole package.....i doubt the other phase backs can either....

BUT either way: this is like kodak vs. fuji (in the old days) it comes down what YOU prefer....so do yourself a favor and test all systems.....if you are looking to shoot with a H, also check out the H3D31....same chip as the P30.....ready the forumposts, but these are all personal opinions....you HAVE to check them all out....if you like the dalsa chip....the sinar backs are amazing as well (almost went with that...instead of the P30....)

nicolaasdb · « **Reply #13 on:** June 19, 2007, 03:34:58 am »

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We voted on our presedent based on personality and that didnt seem to work out so well, I also wouldnt buy a back based on personality of the reps. Did you try turning off the sharpening on the phase back? I think theres a good reason why leaf don't really push there own software. Phase's capture one software is bulletproof and with regard to the hard resets on the leaf, I've owned my phase for 4 months now and have never had a single crash of the back or the software. That kind of thing gets a bit annoying and embarrassing in real world situations. If you did turn off sharpening and it was still too sharp for you then I understand the leaf wouold be the obvious choice.
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I mentioned the rep as an added bonus!! And please don't be so " I have a Phase and it is the best"
I have tested both leaf and phase and the quality so very very close!! I printed both files and felt that the Leaf back worked better for me....will I stay with Leaf?? If I can find something better I will change....they don't do me any favors! so why should I be loyal? I am loyal to my quality of work.
And hard resets get annoying...embarrasing are shitty images on your monitor!! and your incompetence to light your subject the right way!
I think the "wonderful" phase rep...smashing his Hyundai car door about 5 times into my 911....should have turned the sharpness off when I asked him about it.....but he was to busy trying to get the colors right. And yes if I buy into a system the rep becomes (in times of need) a very important part of the system...lucky for you you don't need any support because Phase is the very best system out there....I am happy for you and hope you knocked on wood...since digital technology has the tendency to suddenly get very bad bugs!!

awofinden · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2007, 10:23:51 am »

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I mentioned the rep as an added bonus!! And please don't be so " I have a Phase and it is the best"
I have tested both leaf and phase and the quality so very very close!! I printed both files and felt that the Leaf back worked better for me....will I stay with Leaf?? If I can find something better I will change....they don't do me any favors! so why should I be loyal? I am loyal to my quality of work.
And hard resets get annoying...embarrasing are shitty images on your monitor!! and your incompetence to light your subject the right way!
I think the "wonderful" phase rep...smashing his Hyundai car door about 5 times into my 911....should have turned the sharpness off when I asked him about it.....but he was to busy trying to get the colors right. And yes if I buy into a system the rep becomes (in times of need) a very important part of the system...lucky for you you don't need any support because Phase is the very best system out there....I am happy for you and hope you knocked on wood...since digital technology has the tendency to suddenly get very bad bugs!!
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Hey, easy on, I really don't have any brand loyalty at all, the only loyalty I have is to my work. Shitty images are the most embarassing thing of course but thats a totally different subject. All I'm saying is for me having even 1 lock up during a day of shooting is unnacceptable and other things being equall which I believe they almost are (except for the software) I would go for the back that doesnt have lock ups, seems an obvious choice to me.

narikin · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2007, 07:58:04 pm »

are you on Mac or PC?
if you are on PC, then forget Leaf.

only Phase give you both options with fully developed manufacturers software.

and I would second the bullet proof nature of the Phase backs and workflow.
not lost a single image or had a lock up in 15 months.

pss · « **Reply #16 on:** June 19, 2007, 08:20:18 pm »

i think it is crazy to even talk about loyalty when it comes to TOOLS that we have to pay for! whatever works best for me gets my vote....and if it doesn't they will hear from me....
leaf V8 was pretty stable, V10 was in beta for 3? years and not really that stable....phase is rocksolid....
haven't tried V11 but even if it is stable...leaf, sinar and phase (and hass) anre all in the same position...LR and aperture and several others are overtaking them and i think they will all have a very hard time competing with features....BUT it is very important to have software that works....and i don't think you will find a lot of people who will say that C1 does not work well.....

pprdigital · « **Reply #17 on:** June 19, 2007, 10:17:47 pm »

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are you on Mac or PC?
if you are on PC, then forget Leaf.

only Phase give you both options with fully developed manufacturers software.

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Not the case. One must take care when putting the word "only" in front of things...

Hasselblad also offers both Mac and Windows software (Flexcolor) and has for years. Also, the versions are practically identical.

Steve Hendrix
PPR
www.ppratlanta.com

Author Topic: Leaf vs. Phase? Big difference? (Read 7540 times)

yaya

yaya