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Author Topic: HP temporarily loses sale  (Read 6935 times)

Shutterbug2006

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HP temporarily loses sale
« on: June 16, 2007, 08:17:50 pm »

I cancelled my order for the Z3100 after reading about all the problems with color management that people 'seem' to be having.

It doesn't mean I won't end up buying one, I just want to do some more research and verify that problems are real or not before committing $8000 for a 44" printer.

In the meantime, I keep googling the Z3100 with a variety of reference words (like problems, complaints etc) and find lot of useful information I bookmark when I come across it.

I found an interesting HP technical document that I'm sure current owners would find useful, if they haven't already read it. It would certainly impact on color problems some users have reported.

https://h41186.www4.hp.com/hpp/Data/printin...?pageseq=716726
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SeanPuckett

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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2007, 09:29:34 pm »

That's a great document, and one we pounced on when it was first released.  That doc is a "rosetta stone" between driver settings and actual printer behaviour.  It came out about the same time as the previous release of firmware, and seemed to really open a door of excellent colour and good media selection for any kind of paper.  It's one of the few technical docs I actually printed -- I keep a copy on my desk.  

Unfortunately it doesn't help with the profiling colour issues, but if you do wind up with a z3100, you'll probably come to rely on it as much as I do.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 09:30:13 pm by SeanPuckett »
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rdonson

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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2007, 10:01:07 pm »

When you do get your Z3100 you'll want to refer to the newer version of that doc.  Click here.

BTW, I'm not doubting that some folks are experiencing problems with color mgmt and profiles but not everyone is.  I'm not and I'm not sure why that is.
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Ron

Roscolo

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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2007, 11:32:11 pm »

I also have had no problems with the z3100...best printer I have ever used by far. I'm printing about 70% color and 30% black-and-white. These are the best inkjet prints I've ever seen - true continuous tone that still amazes me. The black-and-whites are unbelievable.

I also do a good deal of giclee' printing for artists on heavy watercolor papers. Colors absolutely have to match and they do. No complaints from even my most color-critical customers...on the contrary, nothing but compliments.

I would not throw down $8000 for the 44" z3100, either, however. That seems too expensive. I got my z for $5,935 with free shipping. After the $1000 rebate thats $4,935. And you may can still get the $500 in free paper on top of that...not sure if that's expired yet. Regardless, you can search the web and find much better deals from reputable suppliers than $8000.

Best of all, especially if you're coming from Epson like I did...no clogs! Even after my z3100 sat idle for over a week while I was away, no clogs.
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Dan Donovan

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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2007, 12:14:36 am »

The problem is that on the forum you don't hear from all of the happy people.  The forum complaints are just a tiny fraction of the entire user base.  After reading objective reviews, I concluded the Z series of printers from HP is THE way to go for most people right now.  I purchased the 24" 3100 and could not be happier.

Dan
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Shutterbug2006

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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2007, 12:20:54 am »

Quote
I would not throw down $8000 for the 44" z3100, either, however. That seems too expensive. I got my z for $5,935 with free shipping. After the $1000 rebate thats $4,935. And you may can still get the $500 in free paper on top of that...not sure if that's expired yet. Regardless, you can search the web and find much better deals from reputable suppliers than $8000.

It's actually more like $8300 before taxes here in Canada, but there is a $3000 rebate I intend to take advantage of by trading in a 24" new junk cutter bought off E-bay.

Its the Z3100 44" GP version which includes Postscript and the APS including monitor calibrator. My understanding is that RIP is included, but dang if I can figure out all the HP marketing materials and the sales reps are not too knowledgeable from the last two phone calls I placed trying to get information.

I think whoever said it was right though, these forums are used mostly when people are having problems, not when things are working great - I'll keep that in mind.
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Roscolo

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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2007, 12:43:45 am »

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It's actually more like $8300 before taxes here in Canada, but there is a $3000 rebate I intend to take advantage of by trading in a 24" new junk cutter bought off E-bay.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123236\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry you had to buy the 24." Check the rebate terms - in the U.S. they changed the terms of the rebate a few weeks ago so that you could upgrade from a 13" (as opposed to a 17" or wider) printer to the z3100 and claim the rebate.

I haven't used a Canon printer of any sort. I've used numerous Epson's, including a friend's 9800, and the z was my choice...the outstanding black-and-white, excellent profiling out-of-the-box and the gloss enhancer were real deal-makers for me.

In 20 years as a professional photographer, the z3100 is one of the best tools I have ever used that so far has performed exactly as advertised, and the first inkjet I've used where I don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything in my work. This is especially true of the black-and-white capability. I have continued to print in my darkroom up until the arrival of the z3100, but the z may spell the end of the vast majority of my darkroom printing. I'm still processing B&W large format film, however.

That said, you are wise to research your purchase until you feel comfortable you are getting what you need. I lost a couple of giclee' clients because, after the death of an Epson 7600, I didn't rush out and buy a Canon ipf5000 to fill their orders and was researching, reading, etc about available options. At the time I was holding out for a wider version of the ipf5000. In the interim, a lot of the problems with that machine came to light. Then the z3100 hit the market and I'm glad I sacrificed a few print jobs to make the right decision for me and my business (I don't want to knock the ipf5000, I know some people are very happy and getting great results). The 44" z3100 has almost paid for itself in a short time.
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dkeyes

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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2007, 01:29:46 am »

Same here, color has been great. On my toughest images I've eliminated issues like bronzing and gloss differential that I had on the epson 9800 and that rips could not get rid of. Only issues for me have been with network/printer connection but have figured out now. Also, my favorite paper for this printer HP Pro Satin is defective in the 44" rolls and can't find a good roll anywhere.
Where this printer sometimes lags (according to others on this site) is color on uncoated/rag paper. I haven't done much with this type of paper so don't know how it performs.
- Doug
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Christopher

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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2007, 09:25:16 am »

It's funny, if I read all this it sound so great. But perhaps these are different expectations. I don't think that printer performes  good at all. On Matt papers especially the colour red is a huge disaester. Just print some starberries... They don't look good on an z3100 at all. Compare that to an Epson and you will never want to print Matt on an z3100... It's just sad, because the printer could match the quality, but the colour mixing is just plain wrong.  

I'm not asking that the z3100 has to be better in all terms than a Epson, but at least it should get close and right now there is a mountain between them.
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Christopher Hauser
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rdonson

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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2007, 11:56:02 am »

Quote
It's funny, if I read all this it sound so great. But perhaps these are different expectations. I don't think that printer performes  good at all. On Matt papers especially the colour red is a huge disaester. Just print some starberries... They don't look good on an z3100 at all. Compare that to an Epson and you will never want to print Matt on an z3100... It's just sad, because the printer could match the quality, but the colour mixing is just plain wrong. 

I'm not asking that the z3100 has to be better in all terms than a Epson, but at least it should get close and right now there is a mountain between them.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Which matte papers are you comparing?  

If I compare prints from my Epson 2200 and my Z3100 on Epson Enhanced Matte or even Hahnemuhle Photo Rag I do see the reds as more "orangey" from the Z3100.

However, when I compare the same image using HP matte papers I don't see the same difference.  This leads me to think its that the the coatings on HP papers are, not surprisingly, optimized for HP inks.

Since HPR and our other favorite matte papers came out before the HP Z3100 I then  conclude that their coatings are optimized for the Epson inkset.

I've done no comparison to see what the test images look like with HP papers on the Epson printers.

Should the custom profiles I create on my Z3100 for the non-HP papers take care of the differences in reds?  I hope they would but I don't know.

BTW, here's my current favorite test image.  Its from [a href=\"http://www.outbackprint.com/printinginsights/pi048/essay.html]Outback Print.[/url]  It includes some juicy looking strawberries.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 12:10:38 pm by rdonson »
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Ron

Wayne Fox

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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2007, 03:56:30 pm »

I'm not sure my problems were "color management" related, more that the printer didn't seem to deliver all it's hyped to deliver.

I was able to calibrate papers just fine, and neither the printer made profiles nor ones I built myself using atkinsons 4096 patch test with an eyeone I0 gave me an improvement over my 9800 on Kodak Lustre and Glossy paper.  I never got around to testing matte papers since I rarely use them, so the results might be different.

The printer was very good, but the reds were weaker and subtle detail in some of the blues and greens was weaker.

While in some areas the blue green gamut was larger with the HP, in mid tone blue greens the gamut was smaller.

Don't get me wrong I think its a great printer and if you have to switch between matte and photo black often, it's the best option out there (only because the canon is such a pain to use).  But as far as final print quality, it isn't blowing the Epsons out of the water, and you could probably buy a 9800 and your own profiling system for less money.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 04:26:16 pm by Wayne Fox »
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rdonson

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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2007, 06:05:23 pm »

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Don't get me wrong I think its a great printer and if you have to switch between matte and photo black often, it's the best option out there (only because the canon is such a pain to use).  But as far as final print quality, it isn't blowing the Epsons out of the water, and you could probably buy a 9800 and your own profiling system for less money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123806\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

For me I never expected it to blow the Epson K3 printers out of the water.  If it was a good as the Epson K3 printers I'd be delighted.  Like you mention, I love not having to swap between MK and PK inks.  That's encouraged me to print on satin/luster media again.  HP Pro Satin has become a favorite now.

I really like the b&w results from the printer.  I like the built-in spectro.  It saves a lot of time over a hand held profiling system and is not more expensive than having to buy the mechanical arm.  I like the fact that I can calibrate the printer easily and quickly  in addition to making profiles.

The reds aren't where they need to be but there are ways to cope with that for what I do.  I'm sure that for some they're a serious problem though.
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Ron

neil snape

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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 12:43:41 pm »

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For me I never expected it to blow the Epson K3 printers out of the water.  If it was a good as the Epson K3 printers I'd be delighted.  Like you mention, I love not having to swap between MK and PK inks.  That's encouraged me to print on satin/luster media again.  HP Pro Satin has become a favorite now.

I really like the b&w results from the printer.  I like the built-in spectro.  It saves a lot of time over a hand held profiling system and is not more expensive than having to buy the mechanical arm.  I like the fact that I can calibrate the printer easily and quickly  in addition to making profiles.

The reds aren't where they need to be but there are ways to cope with that for what I do.  I'm sure that for some they're a serious problem though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123823\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The quality level after all th years Epson had results in image quality being very high. It was a challenge for both HP and Canon to come close. But close is the worst side of some of the image quality aspects whereas I do see many areas that both HP and Canon have surpassed that already high bar. I still find Gloss Enhancer a great thing, that I would rather have over any wild gamut extensions. In the middle most images on all three printer brands will print near equal.
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rdonson

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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 03:03:13 pm »

The Gloss Enhancer is indeed very nice.  It seems quite fragile to me though.  I have to be careful not to let it get scratched.  Do you have the same experience?
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Ron

neil snape

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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 03:21:56 pm »

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The Gloss Enhancer is indeed very nice.  It seems quite fragile to me though.  I have to be careful not to let it get scratched.  Do you have the same experience?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123982\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes it is more fragile than if GE is not applied. Funny that the vivera pigments are slightly more robust than K3 inks yet with the gloss enhancer you have to again excersize caution as it scratches easily.
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stevenh

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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2007, 11:39:48 pm »

on gloss i have had no problems with the reds. on matt hp i have had little problem. mostly i simply strengthen the reds for printing.

i do wish that we could get hp to loosen up with the aps though. i would be willing to buy it if i could find it for a reasonable price with the eyeone even though i already have a 3 year old monaco.

i have had few problems with this printer and certainly fewer than with the epson (which i loved)

just would like to have access to a way to get more transparent shadows farther down the scale. love the subtle values and the details i can get in the highlights. the highlight detail and sublety is one of the things that convinced me to buy it.
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rdonson

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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2007, 06:51:32 am »

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on gloss i have had no problems with the reds. on matt hp i have had little problem. mostly i simply strengthen the reds for printing.

i do wish that we could get hp to loosen up with the aps though. i would be willing to buy it if i could find it for a reasonable price with the eyeone even though i already have a 3 year old monaco.

i have had few problems with this printer and certainly fewer than with the epson (which i loved)

just would like to have access to a way to get more transparent shadows farther down the scale. love the subtle values and the details i can get in the highlights. the highlight detail and sublety is one of the things that convinced me to buy it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126169\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The part number for the APS is Q6695A.  I've searched and the best price I've found is $732 + 4.95 shipping and no tax.  Its out there.  HP charges $799 + $56.33 tax + $72.02 shipping (must come in a lead container for that shipping fee).
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 07:01:16 am by rdonson »
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Ron
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