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Author Topic: 1Ds versus 1DmkIII  (Read 17893 times)

eronald

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1Ds versus 1DmkIII
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2007, 01:05:24 pm »

Jack,

I explained my position on the 1DsII in detail to Canon Inc's Ohara-san. He had an interesting comment: "We know that in the end the quality of the image depends on the quality of the pixels". I would hope therefore that history in terms of the original 1DII and 1DsII will not repeat itself. As for my ability to process my Raw imagery , I guess it's probably equivalent to that of everyone else here who has spent a few years doing it. Of course, Adobe doesn't send me freebies anymore, so I'm still stuck with CS2, but then as you know I've been increasingly forced to use C1 of late



Edmund
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 01:13:36 pm by eronald »
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Nill Toulme

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1Ds versus 1DmkIII
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2007, 07:49:53 pm »

Quote
I explained my position on the 1DsII in detail to Canon Inc's Ohara-san. He had an interesting comment: "We know that in the end the quality of the image depends on the quality of the pixels". ...[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Enigmatic — on both your part and Ohara-san's.  ;-)

Nill
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Ray

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1Ds versus 1DmkIII
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2007, 09:09:38 pm »

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If you are referring to me, I offered a direct print comparison and nobody took me up on it, so any "reluctance or incapacity" was not on my end... 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123556\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

True. I remember that. It would have been interesting if someone had sent you a couple of portraits for print comparisons.  

However, you will recall my skepticism regarding your argument that such differences can only be revealed on a print, are invisible on a monitor at any degree of enlargement and cannot be communicated over the net.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 09:11:57 pm by Ray »
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bart alexander

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1Ds versus 1DmkIII
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2007, 05:03:53 am »

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My short conclusion regarding the 1D3 and 5D is that they are essentially equal as respects image detail. With my current processing which is refined and includes a custom calibration for the 5D, and not at all practiced with the 1D3, the 5D showed more shadow detail.  IMO with perfected processing, each is essentially going to be the same on detail, color and DR.

Cheers,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123526\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for making these files available Jack! The difference in detail indeed is minimal. Reminds me a bit of the difference between D2X and 5D in detail. Apart from the detail of the 5D I like it to be a bit more crisp than the 1DIII file. Would a sharper lens such as the 24-70 yield a bit more detail in the 1DIII do you think?

Kind regards,
Bart
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Ray

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1Ds versus 1DmkIII
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2007, 09:08:00 am »

You know, there comes a point where all these pixel-peeping concerns get very tedious. I'm losing interest fast.

Show the images. Sorry to shout, but I'm not interested in endless waffle.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 10:43:06 am by Ray »
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MarkKay

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1Ds versus 1DmkIII
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2007, 11:49:08 am »

I am not sure the 24-70 would give a different result than the 24-105  but I am curious about how the two would look using one of canon's stellar L optic --- like the 85mm 1.2 or 300/400/2.8 L IS.


Quote
Thanks for making these files available Jack! The difference in detail indeed is minimal. Reminds me a bit of the difference between D2X and 5D in detail. Apart from the detail of the 5D I like it to be a bit more crisp than the 1DIII file. Would a sharper lens such as the 24-70 yield a bit more detail in the 1DIII do you think?

Kind regards,
Bart
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2007, 06:07:15 pm »

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I am not sure the 24-70 would give a different result than the 24-105  but I am curious about how the two would look using one of canon's stellar L optic --- like the 85mm 1.2 or 300/400/2.8 L IS.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123768\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Mark: The problem with using a good L prime is the different sensor crops make the image coverage different and difficult to compare directly -- hence our use of at least an L zoom  

Bart:  To be more specific to your question, and I think Mark has answered it, the 24-105 is probably as sharp as the 24-70 at f8 where we shot -- the bigger advantage to the 24-70 is it has less distortion.  The 1D3 does have a smaller pixel pitch, so in a raw resolution comparison with a sharp-enough lens it should show more detail at the pixel level, but not necessarily at the full image level.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 06:19:30 pm by Jack Flesher »
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2007, 06:13:59 pm »

Quote
You know, there comes a point where all these pixel-peeping concerns get very tedious. I'm losing interest fast.

Show the images. Sorry to shout, but I'm not interested in endless waffle.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

"Show the images" ???    Uh, I gave you the link to download them for yourself earlier in the thread!
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 06:15:30 pm by Jack Flesher »
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MarkKay

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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2007, 06:30:01 pm »

I totally appreciate that point  --- just like with our scientific work there is always someone who wants to be critical  

Quote
Hi Mark: The problem with using a good L prime is the different sensor crops make the image coverage different and difficult to compare directly -- hence our use of at least an L zoom  

Bart:  To be more specific to your question, and I think Mark has answered it, the 24-105 is probably as sharp as the 24-70 at f8 where we shot -- the bigger advantage to the 24-70 is it has less distortion.  The 1D3 does have a smaller pixel pitch, so in a raw resolution comparison with a sharp-enough lens it should show more detail at the pixel level, but not necessarily at the full image level.

Cheers,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123824\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2007, 06:47:00 pm »

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I totally appreciate that point  --- just like with our scientific work there is always someone who wants to be critical 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123829\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Indeed -- clearly holds true in the camera gear testing world too!

,
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MarkKay

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1Ds versus 1DmkIII
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2007, 07:26:40 pm »

I think Rob G has some addendums to his initial enthusiasm
Quote
"A final word on image quality Even with the image quality impairments we've identified here, the files from the EOS-1D Mark III are as we described them earlier in the article: the best we've seen from a digital SLR."

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_pag...cid=7-8738-8908
 "One can also quibble as to whether the Canon 5D has been the best yet (my opinion), but there will be no argument that with the MKIII Canon has now exceeded what has come before, and has set a new benchmark for low noise."

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/came...III-Field.shtml

As to the second quote I know that noise alone isn't everything, but take the comment in broader context.

I'll post others if I can, but those were the two that first came to mind.
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nicolaasdb

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1Ds versus 1DmkIII
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2007, 10:44:37 pm »

I have been shooting with the ds1mkII since it came out and ONLY shoot models (fashion/beauty) I have shot over 200.000 images (na d a new shutter at 134.000) with the ds1 and never once had a feeling the skin texture looked plastiky..until  I intentionally retouched the hell out of them.
I have to day I like my leaf 65 better on skin..but I thought that had to do with it being 16bit instead of 12. I still use my ds1 as a back up...or when I am sick and tired of the shitty focus on the MF camera....and I show a mixture of ds1 and leaf 65 to my clients....they don't even notice the difference and even used the ds1 images for billboards (up to 48ft in length).

I guess is depens a lot on your post production.
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bart alexander

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« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2007, 04:54:08 am »

Quote
I have been shooting with the ds1mkII since it came out and ONLY shoot models (fashion/beauty) I have shot over 200.000 images (na d a new shutter at 134.000) with the ds1 and never once had a feeling the skin texture looked plastiky..until  I intentionally retouched the hell out of them.
I have to day I like my leaf 65 better on skin..but I thought that had to do with it being 16bit instead of 12. I still use my ds1 as a back up...or when I am sick and tired of the shitty focus on the MF camera....and I show a mixture of ds1 and leaf 65 to my clients....they don't even notice the difference and even used the ds1 images for billboards (up to 48ft in length).

I guess is depens a lot on your post production.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123868\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Did you ever shoot a 5D on the line and compared it with the 1Ds pics? I guess it's currently between 5D and 1Ds for flawless image quality? The 1DIII should have image quality as good as or even better than out of the 1Ds since the amount of photons is about the same and even are larger, so more sensitive, but it appears not to me. Although the 1DIII files look almost as detailed as the ones out of the 5D, the 5D files look a bit more real to me. Guess the only way to find out is to shoot both cameras from a tripod with a prime set to infinity to rule out any focus variability. Thanks all for your takes on this topic.
Kind regards,
Bart
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Ray

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« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2007, 09:21:03 am »

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"Show the images" ???    Uh, I gave you the link to download them for yourself earlier in the thread!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123826\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry! I missed that. Must be going blind with all this pixel peeping.

Trying to open those files has been a frustrating experience, especially considering I'm on a 56k dial-up connection. The latest ACR 3.7 for CS2 does not appear to support the 1D3. I can no longer use the beta version of CS3. Haven't yet bought the upgrade.

I decided I might as well uninstall CS3 since it's no longer of use. Unfortunately doing so affected the operation of Bridge in CS2. I tried repairing the installation using the original CS2 software, which worked, but brought me back to version 9.00, so I had to download the 9.02 CS2 update and Camera Raw v3.7.

So several hours later, I have both raw files, I've successfully uninstalled CS3 and CS2 is back to normal, but I can't open the 1D3 file.

Who was it who said life is not meant to be easy.
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jani

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« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2007, 10:39:42 am »

Quote
Guess the only way to find out is to shoot both cameras from a tripod with a prime set to infinity to rule out any focus variability.
Unfortunately, that's no guarantee for anything being in focus at all.

It's better to take pictures in a controlled situation, e.g. a studio, and take test pictures to check where the field of focus is.
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Jan

jani

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« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2007, 10:41:08 am »

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So several hours later, I have both raw files, I've successfully uninstalled CS3 and CS2 is back to normal, but I can't open the 1D3 file.
Download the DNG converter and use that instead.
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Jan

bart alexander

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« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2007, 12:26:01 pm »

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Unfortunately, that's no guarantee for anything being in focus at all.

It's better to take pictures in a controlled situation, e.g. a studio, and take test pictures to check where the field of focus is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123931\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, shooting at infinity at least tells you about how the pixels compare. Not that hard to point a camera towards anything within the infinity range.
Shooting in a studio can only be reliable if the lens is focussed, then taped to secure that it won't change focus, and then mounted on the other camera. (DPreview.com has several comparison pics that aren't focussed at the very same point, so, sort of pointless.) This won't give the same image on a cropped and a full size sensor, but will at least give you an idea of how the sensors compare focussed at the very same point.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 12:27:58 pm by bart alexander »
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2007, 01:15:57 pm »

It's the issue with doing gear tests for the shooting public... No way to please everybody because everybody has their own ideas about what needs to be done to make it a valid test, yet no concensus on what those test parameters should be is ever reached.   It's why I recommend everybody tests for themselves and personally don't try to share anything approaching scientific anymore.  I simply shoot an easily repeatable "real world" scene with a range of detail and lots of bright highlights and deep shadows, and toss a Macbeth color checker in for reference.  I still share my impressions but allow everybody the opportunity to draw their own conclusions from my results if they feel so motivated.  So far this approach seems to create less turmoil...

,
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 01:32:57 pm by Jack Flesher »
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jani

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« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2007, 05:49:07 pm »

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Well, shooting at infinity at least tells you about how the pixels compare. Not that hard to point a camera towards anything within the infinity range.
And how do you propose to make this a reliable, repeatable test?

Are you aware that "infinity" on the lens doesn't necessarily mean that the point of focus will be the same from hour to hour, depending on e.g. temperature?

Quote
Shooting in a studio can only be reliable if the lens is focussed, then taped to secure that it won't change focus, and then mounted on the other camera.
Shooting test shots for resolution can only be reliable if the lens is focused. Period. It has nothing to do with whether you do it in a studio or not, but in a studio, it's easier to control than outdoors.
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Ray

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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2007, 09:29:03 pm »

I think the issue here, Jani, is that the closer the test target the greater will be the significance of any degree of misfocussing. Focussing at infinity using autofocus is probably going to allow greater accuracy with less hassle.

On the other hand, distant objects are not necessarily good targets for comparing resolution, due to often lower contrast.

Another issue which might complicate matters is the fact, apparently, that all lenses do not necessarily exhibit equal performance at all focussed distances. Lens 'A' might be betterthan lens 'B' at infinity whereas lens 'B' might be better than lens 'A' at a close distance of 2-3 metres, at the same f stop.

Having tested a few of my own lenses, I'm acutely aware that the slightest degree of misfocussing can ruin the results, particularly at wide apertures. For this reason I prefer to use test charts with progressively narrower lines and manually focus if necessary. On some part of the chart, and at an appropriate distance from the chart, the lines will be spaced so that they will cause aliasing and color aberrations which are clearly visible through the viewfinder.

When these artifact are at their most obvious, this represents the most accurate focussing I know of. Turn the focussing ring by the slightest degree and you can see such colorful aberrations diminish and/or disappear entirely.

It's also interesting that sometimes when using autofocus on such a chart (Norman Koren's is ideal) the autofocus will appear to be 'spot on' the first time the shutter is half depressed, slightly off-focus the second time and back on focus the third time.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 09:32:22 pm by Ray »
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