Topic: Will rip give better print sharpness and details ? (Read 6105 times)

johnchoy · « **on:** June 12, 2007, 01:00:38 pm »

I'm not sure whether my original scan isn't good enough; or my sharpening technique is up to the standard or not. My initial large print from Z3100 ( just a 50 x70cm on HP ID gloss photo paper) is not as sharp and detailed as I printed earlier from a banner output firm whereas the print was a 4 x5 feet on canvas material. And of course, both source (4x5 B&W negative) were scanned by myself using the Epson V700 w/ approximately the same workflow.

I wonder if a rip will help.

Thanks for any input.

John

rdonson · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2007, 02:02:19 pm »

Quote

I'm not sure whether my original scan isn't good enough; or my sharpening technique is up to the standard or not. My initial large print from Z3100 ( just a 50 x70cm on HP ID gloss photo paper) is not as sharp and detailed as I printed earlier from a banner output firm whereas the print was a 4 x5 feet on canvas material. And of course, both source (4x5 B&W negative) were scanned by myself using the Epson V700 w/ approximately the same workflow.

I wonder if a rip will help.

Thanks for any input.

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122422\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A couple of thoughts....

1 - do you use a sharpening workflow? If not, take a look at PixelGenius PhotoKit Sharpener. It's a marvel.

2 - if you're looking for a painless way to uprez and final sharpen for printing check out Qimage. It's a working person's RIP for uprez, layout, etc. It just doesn't do the linearization and ink loading that most RIPs do. Those aren't as meaningful tasks as they used to be if you're running a Z3100 since the printer does it.

Christopher · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2007, 09:24:20 pm »

First big problem, there is no real good RIP for the z3100 yet. Yes there are some, but they are far from good in terms of colour.

neil snape · « **Reply #3 on:** June 13, 2007, 06:12:40 am »

ImagePrint is on my Mac.
It is running very well.
All I can say is YES there is a ton more shadow detail with IP, and most of the color transitions are EXACTLY what I want to see.

Now as far as sharpening. In the driver all drivers there is some amount of edge sharpening, and even some other forms depending on the brand.
HP is very if not too conservative for some users tastes if they've been using Epson.
The key is does it repro the detail in the image or add it's own sharp that isn't really there?
Will a RIP be sharper? See previous. In general a RIP should repro the data and not add to image data. If the screening is set to add sharpening, moderation is better than heavy handedness.

Kenneth Sky · « **Reply #4 on:** June 13, 2007, 08:37:46 am »

Neil
Are you using the RIP on your HP B9180? If so, what are the advantages over running straight though CS 3?
Ken

neil snape · « **Reply #5 on:** June 13, 2007, 10:37:36 am »

Quote

Neil
Are you using the RIP on your HP B9180? If so, what are the advantages over running straight though CS 3?
Ken
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122578\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Haven't tried IP on the 9180 but did try EFI Designer Edition. EFI works better at this time on the 9180 than the Z.
Other than workflow the humble 9180 doesn't need a rip.

johnchoy · « **Reply #6 on:** June 13, 2007, 11:08:15 am »

Quote

A couple of thoughts....

1 - do you use a sharpening workflow? If not, take a look at PixelGenius PhotoKit Sharpener. It's a marvel.

2 - if you're looking for a painless way to uprez and final sharpen for printing check out Qimage. It's a working person's RIP for uprez, layout, etc. It just doesn't do the linearization and ink loading that most RIPs do. Those aren't as meaningful tasks as they used to be if you're running a Z3100 since the printer does it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122439\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Since I'm working on large files ( over 200MB ), Qimage did not print (even I tried the Raw processing mode)and it said my computer was out of memory. It even made the matter worser that I had to restart the printer ( error) and to reinstall the driver (the print preview checkbox disappeared). I think I should have enough memory to print with file over 200 MB. I have 2G ram.

As for PhotoKit Sharpener, It works on RGB mode only and it make my B&W file size 3 times larger if I convert it to RGB. Moreover, It utilize layers to function so the file size will be so huge to handle.

thanks

Charles Gast · « **Reply #7 on:** June 13, 2007, 11:30:35 am »

Quote

ImagePrint is on my Mac.
It is running very well.
All I can say is YES there is a ton more shadow detail with IP, and most of the color transitions are EXACTLY what I want to see.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122569\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are running IP with a z3100? Are you beta testing for Colorbyte?
Maybe I misunderstood your post but it sounded interesting

neil snape · « **Reply #8 on:** June 13, 2007, 11:35:04 am »

Quote

You are running IP with a z3100? Are you beta testing for Colorbyte?
Maybe I misunderstood your post but it sounded interesting
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd say but John at Colorbyte doesn't like using the term beta tester.
It will be a very good option for the Z. I'm just setting up my last 44" production model non PS as I type. I will get to test Image Print on this production model, and I'll report back either here on on my review on my site.

EricWHiss · « **Reply #9 on:** June 13, 2007, 02:29:08 pm »

Quote

I'd say but John at Colorbyte doesn't like using the term beta tester.
It will be a very good option for the Z. I'm just setting up my last 44" production model non PS as I type. I will get to test Image Print on this production model, and I'll report back either here on on my review on my site.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122616\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Neil,
I'm very interested to hear your report on the z3100 with IP. I previously used IP 6 with an epson 4000 from a Mac and know about the workflow and layout features which are great timesavers. However, what I really want to know is if better gamut (in the primaries) can be achieved with IP than with the HP APS solution. As far as I know IP does not allow for user control of ink mixing, however I don't know if they use a different mixing than HP. I have read posts that users have opened up the ink cartridges and mixed up fine reds themselves, ones that they can't get with the HP firmware/driver so far....
Thanks,
Eric Hiss

neil snape · « **Reply #10 on:** June 13, 2007, 04:55:03 pm »

APs won't change the separations in the driver, merely write a description about the colors produced with known values.
IP does have better transitions than the driver. Maximum gamut though I didn't notice anything shockingly different.
I suppose you could hack a cartridge, but I'd rather leave the ink formulation up to HP.
I don't see any problem in the reds , although for the thick art papers the reds are not as good as they are with Epson. As soon as you are on FA smooth or Enhanced matte the reds are comparable, and for all lustre or glossy well they are often better than I need, and as good as the most difficult images that I've been able to throw at it.

Charles Gast · « **Reply #11 on:** June 13, 2007, 05:40:11 pm »

How do the saturated yellows look?
I think Colorbyte is using HP mix recipes but much higher quality spectro and profiling software than the HP is using aps or non aps.
As I understand it from previous conversations with the Colorbyte reps the spectro in the printer is still used to run a calibration but the profiles come from Colorbyte. This allows the spectro in the printer to characterize the heads to compensate for any difference from head to head. I am not sure if this is so really. I have heard so many different stories about IP's availability timetable and mode of operation over the last 6 months I don't know what to believe

Christopher · « **Reply #12 on:** June 14, 2007, 05:56:39 pm »

Quote

APs won't change the separations in the driver, merely write a description about the colors produced with known values.
IP does have better transitions than the driver. Maximum gamut though I didn't notice anything shockingly different.
I suppose you could hack a cartridge, but I'd rather leave the ink formulation up to HP.
I don't see any problem in the reds , although for the thick art papers the reds are not as good as they are with Epson. As soon as you are on FA smooth or Enhanced matte the reds are comparable, and for all lustre or glossy well they are often better than I need, and as good as the most difficult images that I've been able to throw at it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122689\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's so interesting, that some say FA smoth is better than, HM PhotoRag... Sorry I tested both and don't get that much of a difference. Compared to Epson the reds SUCK hard time. That is a simple truth. Now use APS or the standard profiling system, and they are getting even worse. I can and will soon right more about some very intense testing on Matt papers with the z3100 and different profiling solutions. ( Standard, APS, Profile Maker, Monaco Profiler)

Don't get me wrong, if you just see the z3100 print, then you could say, oh yes looks quite good. Now put next to it a Epson print, and people will ask you if there is something wrong with the other print. Yes I have been at that point, which really is embarrasing... Now once more, this is just for Matt papers and the colour red. Now plz don't start arguing, that "oh but the HP has more gamut on other colours", this is true, but no colour is so obvious than the colour red.

neil snape · « **Reply #13 on:** June 15, 2007, 01:12:59 am »

Quote

It's so interesting, that some say FA smoth is better than, HM PhotoRag... Sorry I tested both and don't get that much of a difference. Compared to Epson the reds SUCK hard time. That is a simple truth. Now use APS or the standard profiling system, and they are getting even worse. I can and will soon right more about some very intense testing on Matt papers with the z3100 and different profiling solutions. ( Standard, APS, Profile Maker, Monaco Profiler)

Don't get me wrong, if you just see the z3100 print, then you could say, oh yes looks quite good. Now put next to it a Epson print, and people will ask you if there is something wrong with the other print. Yes I have been at that point, which really is embarrasing... Now once more, this is just for Matt papers and the colour red. Now plz don't start arguing, that "oh but the HP has more gamut on other colours", this is true, but no colour is so obvious than the colour red.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you can't see or measure the difference between FA Smooth and H308 you are doing something wrong. You will never match the dark reds of the Epson on H308 but have fun trying.

Author Topic: Will rip give better print sharpness and details ? (Read 6105 times)