Z3100 Advanced Profiling Solution

[ltphoto]

First of all, sorry if this has been asked before. I did a search and did not come up with anything.

I am trying to find out exactly what is included in the APS option for the HP DesignJet Z3100. I have spent a long, frustrating chat session with an HP sales person who obviously does not have any idea what I am asking and does not seem to be able to figure out where to get help. I know it includes the ImagePrint RIP and also a monitor calibrator. What is in the package that lets me make better profiles than the base system? I cannot figure that part out from any HP literature.

Roy

[Panascape]

APS is simply a customised version of Gretags Eye-One software with a Gretag Eye-One display device. There is no ImagePrint RIP with APS.

[kers]

APS is simply a customised version of Gretags Eye-One software with a Gretag Eye-One display device. There is no ImagePrint RIP with APS.
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If I understand it correctly-
 the default package only needs a target rgb image to print and then you would be able to calibrate all printers you like. please confirm.

So the aps contains this target and and a more sensitive target that has more coloured spots ( about 900?) + software to make sense of the 900 spots target - that is it?

[Lorenz]

hi there,

take a look at the attached pdf "HP_APS_vs_HP_Color_Center" - should explain pretty well what's includes and what the differences between the standard setup (out of the box) an the APS (or any GP version of the printer) is...

regards,

lorenz

[Christopher]

hi there,

take a look at the attached pdf "HP_APS_vs_HP_Color_Center" - should explain pretty well what's includes and what the differences between the standard setup (out of the box) an the APS (or any GP version of the printer) is...

regards,

lorenz
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122526\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

APS = waste of money, if you already have a monitor calibration...

[rdonson]

APS = waste of money, if you already have a monitor calibration...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122532\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not sure how you draw that conclusion.  There's a lot more there than getting an Eye-One Display 2 unless you don't think that creating profiles from more patches or being able to edit the profiles is worthwhile.

[rdonson]

hi there,

take a look at the attached pdf "HP_APS_vs_HP_Color_Center" - should explain pretty well what's includes and what the differences between the standard setup (out of the box) an the APS (or any GP version of the printer) is...

regards,

lorenz
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122526\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks, Lorenz.  That's the most info on APS that I've seen.  Now if we could find something that could compare APS to any of the many Gretag/Xrite offerings we might begin to understand what we're getting for $800.  Then again, current owners of APS can probably share whether its worth it over the base Z3100 capabilities.

[ltphoto]

Thanks for all the replies and the PDF. I wish HP could just make this information accessible. I found vague descriptions in various places and nothing before now that actually said what was included (and a couple of HP references say you get the ImagePrint RIP).

Roy

[neil snape]

APS is simply a customised version of Gretags Eye-One software with a Gretag Eye-One display device. There is no ImagePrint RIP with APS.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sort of .

It runs the V 6 motor of Logo/Profile maker color engine. More than than that but the overview and UI is built upon the code for i1Match yet with so many customisations towards ProfileMaker and of course HP's own very well thought out simplifications of a very complex situation.

[marcsitkin]

The APS includes a monitor calibrator, and software for monitor calibration.

The print profiling software allows the selection targets with different patch counts.
The profiles from the APS are a bit better in the shadows than the simpler software that comes with the printer.

The profiles generated are usable only in conjunction with the Z3100 drivers.
They are not N+3 profiles, and are therefore unsuitable with a RIP that needs that type of profile (example:Wasatch Softrip or Ergosoft). THey do work perfectly well with Qprint.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Marc Sitkin

[neil snape]

The APS includes a monitor calibrator, and software for monitor calibration.

The print profiling software allows the selection targets with different patch counts.
The profiles from the APS are a bit better in the shadows than the simpler software that comes with the printer.

The profiles generated are usable only in conjunction with the Z3100 drivers.
They are not N+3 profiles, and are therefore unsuitable with a RIP that needs that type of profile (example:Wasatch Softrip or Ergosoft). THey do work perfectly well with Qprint.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The monitor cal and profile is good enough for most professional use. Personally I use Color Eyes as it is quite a bit better at grey balance.
I haven't found a difference in shadow detail with APS but a much tighter tolerance in color accuracy, but on all media other than matte. For matte the built in solution can actually be better . I still like the grey balance of the built in profiler in all cases.

Actually APS can be used as a generic profiler for any printer. Just send out the chart and print to another printer, bring the chart in when dry and profile away. This way you can use whatever rip you like, or even whatever printer or system. As long as the paper will feed it will work (in theory).
This is of course clearly as stated rgb or CMYK profiles, not Device N as you said. There are not any Device N rips with built in profiling for the Z. I doubt there will be.

[Ernst Dinkla]

The APS includes a monitor calibrator, and software for monitor calibration.

The print profiling software allows the selection targets with different patch counts.
The profiles from the APS are a bit better in the shadows than the simpler software that comes with the printer.

The profiles generated are usable only in conjunction with the Z3100 drivers.
They are not N+3 profiles, and are therefore unsuitable with a RIP that needs that type of profile (example:Wasatch Softrip or Ergosoft). THey do work perfectly well with Qprint.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Marc Sitkin
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But would the combination work if you let the Wasatch Softrip 6.1 behave like an RGB device and let the profiler make Advanced RGB profiles ? It is one of the few RIPs that have that choice. In essence it should act like ImagePrint then but with access to the inklimits etc. I have upgraded to 6.1 but have not done much with it so far.

There's an N-color canvas media setting + profile delivered with the RIP that has an aircraft carrier shape/size that even extends  a good part of Prophoto's atomic submarine's size in the SoftRip's profile viewer. I get a bit suspicious whether all the parts of the RIP are working correctly.

Ernst Dinkla

try:  [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]

[Charles Gast]

Thanks for all the replies and the PDF. I wish HP could just make this information accessible. I found vague descriptions in various places and nothing before now that actually said what was included (and a couple of HP references say you get the ImagePrint RIP).

Roy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122549\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dont buy the aps. Its an HP hose job. If you want to spend money on something that will really help the color of your prints wait for Colorbytes Image Print RIP. It will be here before the end of 2007 hopefully sooner. $800 for APS  is in my opinion a waste but my previous experience with image print tells me the $1500 it will cost for a 3100 will make a valuable difference in color. We are eagerly waiting to see how IP works out.

[rdonson]

Dont buy the aps. Its an HP hose job. If you want to spend money on something that will really help the color of your prints wait for Colorbytes Image Print RIP. It will be here before the end of 2007 hopefully sooner. $800 for APS  is in my opinion a waste but my previous experience with image print tells me the $1500 it will cost for a 3100 will make a valuable difference in color. We are eagerly waiting to see how IP works out.
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IP would be especially nice if it uses the built-in spectro on the Z3100. Otherwise we're back to waiting on IP to supply its proprietary profiles for papers, right?

[Charles Gast]

IP would be especially nice if it uses the built-in spectro on the Z3100. Otherwise we're back to waiting on IP to supply its proprietary profiles for papers, right?
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IP will -as I understand it -  still use the onboard spectro to do the calibration of the heads.  But you really don't want to use the built in spectro to do the profiling!  The spectro Colorbyte uses to do the profile is more accurate. I doubt they are using Greytag software either.  They will provide far better profiles than anything this pirnter built-in profiler can provide.
Another thing.  All the color issues we discuss here are based on profiles which use Greytag software to create the profile. Even the hose-job extra$800 "APS" still uses Greytag software.  *What If* the Greytag software is the problem? I would like, no I would LOVE to see what happens to the output of this printer if something other than greytag is used to create the profile.  That is a question I have not heard asked before and the answer could be very interesting.  The greytag profilign software may be choking on the 12 ink system.

[madmanchan]

Charles, you could find out how by having a custom profile made by a service that uses tools other than GM's LOGO v5 or v6 engine.

[neil snape]

Each flavour of profile application has it's own taste especially in perceptual rendering intent. The built in profiler is NOT Gretag. Gretag is good, and well used in the industry. If the repsonse of the Z prints are what they are, no profiler is going to be able to do much about that. Some smoothing, some good math can cure things yet the relative intent should be pretty close one to another.

My take on APS is more optimistic. Yesterday I recieved a shipping version of the Z. I set it up and other than clearing out old beta software the printer was up and ready in little time. At the end of the initialisation I needed only do a cal, then an APS profile on glossy ID which the customer insists on. I pressed the button to profile, went and had dinner, and the printer was at a level that years ago would have required an expert to get it there.
Can you do better with external kit? Yes, if you have it and know how to. That doesn't take value away from a fully automated profiler of very good quality.