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Author Topic: MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?  (Read 31259 times)

feppe

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #100 on: June 15, 2007, 06:52:17 AM »

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I think you might find if you did fly to the US to buy a MFDB that:  1)  The dealer you approached wouldn't sell you one if they knew you were from the EU, because their contract with the back manufacturer forbids them to sell outside their geographic area. &  2) The warranty would be for the US only. 

I don't think you'd have trouble buying any other sort of photographic gear with an international warranty.

Cheers

Barrie
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

1) Such restrictions are easy to get around, even if the dealer is not supportive.

2) According to the following UK site, Phase for example, has a 3-year worldwide warranty:
[a href=\"http://www.directdigitalimaging.com/3yearwarranty.html]http://www.directdigitalimaging.com/3yearwarranty.html[/url]

Is the warranty different when bought from the US?

Dustbak

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #101 on: June 15, 2007, 07:00:59 AM »

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1) Such restrictions are easy to get around, even if the dealer is not supportive.

2) According to the following UK site, Phase for example, has a 3-year worldwide warranty:
http://www.directdigitalimaging.com/3yearwarranty.html

Is the warranty different when bought from the US?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122945\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I would very much favour a system of dealers and for instance a factory store.

That way people that would really want the dealer support can go via a dealer.

People that just want to buy the thing and have basic warranty and basic tech support can go to the factory store. RMA and warranty claims have to be send to the factory directly naturally.

This would be the fairest way giving everybody an option on how to get the equipment they want and how much support they will receive.
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BernardLanguillier

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #102 on: June 15, 2007, 10:48:24 AM »

Are the geo limitations imposed by Phaseone also present with Hassy?

I see H3D for sales on ebay on a regular basis, do they offers include a valid garantee independantly from where you are based?

If that were the case, this alone would be a huge incentive in favour of Hassy.

Regards,
Bernard
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narikin

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #103 on: June 15, 2007, 07:41:45 PM »

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Even then, the price discrepancy of MFDBs between EU and US is glaring. I've thought about the pricing and the only reason for it I can come up with is that the US market has less tolerance for higher prices. At today's exchange rate, a PhaseOne P45+ pricing in the UK would be 37,000USD (no VAT included). I know nothing about the business in the US, so others are more qualified to give their opinion how 37,000USD for a P45+ sounds - I found a USD price of 22,000 which would mean a hefty 68% premium. (And what's up with MFDB pricing apparently being a state secret, can't find prices anywhere?)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I live in the UK and the US, and I've bought two P45's and a P45+
neither of these prices are right at all.
after negotiating hard and long, I can say that the UK price is too high, and the US price is nowhere near that low.
in the US you might now get a regular P45 for $22,000 but not a P45+ for sure.

jus felt this should be corrected before it becomes accepted fact.
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ericstaud

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #104 on: June 15, 2007, 10:26:14 PM »

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In Europe you can now buy 3 cheap new cars for the price of a P45+ system. Maybe cars have got cheaper

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is true, but most people people are charging some sort of fees to their clients to pay off that P45+.  In the long run, the P45+ is MUCH cheaper than film.  My P45+ will be paid in full in 18 months with money that would have ALL gone to film, processing, and polaroid previously.

As for the 3 cheap new cars for 30K, maybe you can start up a pizza delivery service, because it's going to be hard to get them paid for in a photography business.
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hubell

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #105 on: June 15, 2007, 10:31:41 PM »

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I live in the UK and the US, and I've bought two P45's and a P45+
neither of these prices are right at all.
after negotiating hard and long, I can say that the UK price is too high, and the US price is nowhere near that low.
in the US you might now get a regular P45 for $22,000 but not a P45+ for sure.

jus felt this should be corrected before it becomes accepted fact.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually, you can get a P45+ for around $22K or even less in the US if you play your cards right. The little secret is that you first have to go on a public forum and announce that you have been looking at both the P45+ and the H3D-39, but are now ready to buy an H3D-39. Phase cannot stand to lose a customer to Hasselblad. They will do anything to win. Too bad this charade needs to be pursued.
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Craig Lamson

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #106 on: June 16, 2007, 07:36:24 AM »

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  My P45+ will be paid in full in 18 months with money that would have ALL gone to film, processing, and polaroid previously.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123056\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Film, processing and polaroid were all billable items. None of them "cost' you anything.  In addition they became a profit center after markup.  Very poor comparison.

Thre only true way to figure ROI on a digital back (or camera) is to total your charges for frame fees, rental fees (if you charge them) and perhaps file fees.
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josayeruk

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #107 on: June 16, 2007, 07:59:49 AM »

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Film, processing and polaroid were all billable items. None of them "cost' you anything.  In addition they became a profit center after markup.  Very poor comparison.

Thre only true way to figure ROI on a digital back (or camera) is to total your charges for frame fees, rental fees (if you charge them) and perhaps file fees.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123099\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well sort of...

But not having the burden of film and processing helps cash flow and frees up more possibilities to experiment with new ideas at no / lower cost.
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ericstaud

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« Reply #108 on: June 16, 2007, 11:58:04 AM »

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Film, processing and polaroid were all billable items. None of them "cost' you anything.  In addition they became a profit center after markup.  Very poor comparison.

Thre only true way to figure ROI on a digital back (or camera) is to total your charges for frame fees, rental fees (if you charge them) and perhaps file fees.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123099\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The check I write out for the P45+ system loan is about the same as the check I used to write out for film, processing, and polaroid each month.  It is a pretty simple comparison.

It works the same as Film.  The P45+ is a profit center already (at least as much as film was).  After the system is paid off in total,  it will pay huge dividends.  Somehow with ten years of film I never made my last payment.

"rental fees (if you charge them)"....
I don't personally know anyone who does not charge something for the back.  It is either a straight line item, or it a capture setup fee, or frame rate that adds up to that 400-600 dollar daily camera rental from the place down the street.  It is absolutely a billable item.
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alexjones

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« Reply #109 on: June 16, 2007, 12:27:58 PM »

Like Eric said this is all very billable.  If you are not billing plenty for the service and equipment you are truly foolish.  It's a major part of what you do time wise and expense wise.  More time is easily spent in post than the shoot.  You can not give this away and stay in business let alone current with the industry.  I don't care much about the price of the back and camera.  What I do care about is dependability, flexibility, compatibility and service.  My Hasselblad back (Imacon 132c) is a critical part of what I do.  It works day in and day out.  Best piece of hardware I have ever owned, and I look forward to upgrading it when that makes sense.

Alex

Digital Tech and Photographic Assistant Pittsburgh

http://alexrjones.com/alexrjones/digitaltech.html
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Craig Lamson

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« Reply #110 on: June 16, 2007, 02:55:28 PM »

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The check I write out for the P45+ system loan is about the same as the check I used to write out for film, processing, and polaroid each month. It is a pretty simple comparison.

It works the same as Film. The P45+ is a profit center already (at least as much as film was). After the system is paid off in total, it will pay huge dividends. Somehow with ten years of film I never made my last payment.

"rental fees (if you charge them)"....
I don't personally know anyone who does not charge something for the back. It is either a straight line item, or it a capture setup fee, or frame rate that adds up to that 400-600 dollar daily camera rental from the place down the street. It is absolutely a billable item.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123133\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You think you will still be using that back in ten years? I don't.  That business model is dead and buried.

As to rental fees or capture fees or frame fees equaling 400-600 bucks, that is totally dependant on the market and the project.  In my market where a big day is one to three major interior images, no combination of frame fees etc. is ever going to get to 400 bucks, never did even in the day of shooting 4x5 film.  If I or my peers in our market billed for a back rental (or simlar) for every day of a shoot it would be our last job in the market.  Rates are falling, not rising.  Clients are caring less about quality and more about price.  One size does not fit all in this case.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to shoot a P-45 (if somehow I could get the same FOV as a 12 mm on 35 format) if it would actually pay for itself.  The reality is that there will never be a decent ROI for that back in my market.  Now the Mamiya...maybe....
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 07:49:43 PM by infocusinc »
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alexjones

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #111 on: June 16, 2007, 03:05:01 PM »

Very few backs will be in use after 10 years eventhough they will still work for the most part.  You upgrade every so often when it makes sense.  The concept remains the same and Eric's point remains fully valid.  You charge for whatever service you provide.
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david o

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #112 on: June 23, 2007, 07:05:14 AM »

I'd like to say few things about the price of ZD back and the other brands.
This is a 22MP 38x46mm at 7.000$
From other company the price is around 15.000$ more expensive.

What do you get for this 15.000$ :
- a bigger screen. Right but today I can buy a 20" apple cinema display screen for 600$ or the 30" for 1800$, sounds that the 1" in MF is really expensive.
- 2 more bits. Here I don't know what this 2 bits would cost but if it's the same idea as the price of an inch... you get me

We all knew that DMF back are expensive. Some could afford it and some could just dream at it.
The prices where really close. So even if we had the feeling that is was high price to get in it sounded normal in a way.
Now I doubt...

I don't say that the Phase or Leaf or Sinar prices are not justified, they're sure not because of the screen, I don't buy that.
R&D could be a part of the cost difference... May be but for how long Phase is in Digital?

BTW I am just asking. I know that sometime if you want a car than can pull you to 305km/h compare to the one that goes at 300 you have to pay huge bucks.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 07:30:32 AM by david olivier »
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eronald

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #113 on: June 23, 2007, 07:21:41 AM »

Thierry -

YOU LOST YOUR BET  
What were you betting ?

Edmund

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why the hell should France not been an interesting market for Sinar? And why "of course"???

Edmund, France is not my country of responsibilities: that's why I am not there. But I bet the right people representing Sinar shall be.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122805\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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eronald

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #115 on: June 23, 2007, 12:46:19 PM »

Yes, yes, I always like discussing beer over a beer

Edmund

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I LOST IT, damn!

Let's speak about the "what" when we meet.   

Thierry
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LA30

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #116 on: June 24, 2007, 10:08:14 PM »

Rental prices...

Here is a big rental place in NYC.

http://www.trecrental.com/

Leaf Aptus22 Digital Back (H1 system)   View                  
On Line Price $569.00

Phase One P30 Digital Back (H1 system)   View      Add              On Line Price $649.00

Phase One P45 Digital Back (H1 system)   View                   On Line Price $729.00

Figure lens at 50/day or as low as 35/day and you are talking some serious coin a day....Factor in hard drives monitors and laptops.....Now I know that we all take jobs for 2 grand a day and they might not have the budget for 1000 in rental fees...But we need to educate our clients.  They backs are coming out every 2.5 years.  Computers should be dumped every 2 years.  The client gets a High Res scan every frame you take and they get it right NOW and it is all backed up safe and secure.  That is worth something.

Ken
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eronald

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« Reply #117 on: June 25, 2007, 11:14:43 AM »

These rental prices are ridiculous.

I don't want to say this too loudly, but what do you do when you need to learn the back, and more importantly the software ? Or do you people always get it right the first time ? I have taken about 3 months to figure out how to use C1 properly, I mean creatively ...
 
What do you do when you need to test model/makeup? What do you do when you are doing editorial work on a low budget ?

I may be the least professional member on this forum, but while owning a  system may make sense for me the rental fees for Hassy/Phase/Leaf do not.  There is such a thing as pricing more than the market can bear.

I can understand that people want to use MF equipment for themselves and their clients, because they want to provide that quality. But I wonder how many of you can really look a client in the face and tell him that he MUST pay such obscene rental bills.

In addition, if the price difference between renting a back is $2000 over three days, I can imagine this gives a huge advantage to those who do not need to rent - or those who have the ***talent to get the job done*** with a $2.5K Canon. And I'm willing to bet that every fashion guy on this forum can do a very good job with the Canon, so the younger competition with good retouching skills might be able to do an even better job.

Edmund

Quote
Rental prices...

Here is a big rental place in NYC.

http://www.trecrental.com/

Leaf Aptus22 Digital Back (H1 system)   View           
On Line Price $569.00

Phase One P30 Digital Back (H1 system)   View    Add        On Line Price $649.00

Phase One P45 Digital Back (H1 system)   View           On Line Price $729.00

Figure lens at 50/day or as low as 35/day and you are talking some serious coin a day....Factor in hard drives monitors and laptops.....Now I know that we all take jobs for 2 grand a day and they might not have the budget for 1000 in rental fees...But we need to educate our clients.  They backs are coming out every 2.5 years.  Computers should be dumped every 2 years.  The client gets a High Res scan every frame you take and they get it right NOW and it is all backed up safe and secure.  That is worth something.

Ken
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124716\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 12:51:34 PM by eronald »
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Dustbak

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MF cartel broken - new pricing coming?
« Reply #118 on: June 25, 2007, 02:00:04 PM »

Quote
These rental prices are ridiculous.

I don't want to say this too loudly, but what do you do when you need to learn the back, and more importantly the software ? Or do you people always get it right the first time ? I have taken about 3 months to figure out how to use C1 properly, I mean creatively ...

What do you do when you need to test model/makeup? What do you do when you are doing editorial work on a low budget ?

I may be the least professional member on this forum, but while owning a system may make sense for me the rental fees for Hassy/Phase/Leaf do not. There is such a thing as pricing more than the market can bear.

I can understand that people want to use MF equipment for themselves and their clients, because they want to provide that quality. But I wonder how many of you can really look a client in the face and tell him that he MUST pay such obscene rental bills.

In addition, if the price difference between renting a back is $2000 over three days, I can imagine this gives a huge advantage to those who do not need to rent - or those who have the ***talent to get the job done*** with a $2.5K Canon. And I'm willing to bet that every fashion guy on this forum can do a very good job with the Canon, so the younger competition with good retouching skills might be able to do an even better job.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124780\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I cannot vouch for these amounts but over here rental amounts are in the 300-500euro range for a 22-39Mp back (wich is appr. 400-700USD). This is with body and 'kitlens'.

Learning curve is at your expense (as it should).

If you hire once a month it is starting to make sense to buy one yourself.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 02:00:54 PM by Dustbak »
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