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Author Topic: Avoid Heathrow Airport in London UK at all costs  (Read 92097 times)

fotomachi

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Avoid Heathrow Airport in London UK at all costs
« Reply #100 on: October 18, 2007, 02:26:04 pm »

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On arrival at Heathrow, the baggage reclain area was simply chock full of unclaimed bags, just lying around the place and they even managed to damage my bike in a way that suggested very serious impact of some kind.

That is one of the reasons I never will book a connecting flight via LHR ever again. Going to Sri Lanka last year, they damaged my tripod. Coming back from Sri Lanka, several of my souvenirs were broken. Also, going to Sri Lanka, I missed my connecting flight in Dubai because the take-off in LHR was delayed by three hours: there were suspected terrorists on my flight and Queen Lizzy's Nazi Brigade had to remove their bags from the cargo room - this after they already delayed the flight because of so-called passport issues with (other or the same) terrorists. Even if I don't take these perhaps unlucky occassions into account, LHR airport feels and sounds like a hopeless anachronism. Arriving at LHR for me is not just arriving in a different country, but also a different era. Compare LHR with airports such as in Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Dubai or even Istanbul.

Sorry for the rant, mentioning LHR always does this for me
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Lisa Nikodym

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« Reply #101 on: October 18, 2007, 04:23:55 pm »

Back in the days of film cameras, LHR was the *only* airport I went through (and I've been through many) that completely refused to hand-check ISO 800 film and insisted that it be sent through the X-ray machine.  Always.

Their attitude is nothing new.

Lisa
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #102 on: October 18, 2007, 09:11:28 pm »

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Back in the days of film cameras, LHR was the *only* airport I went through (and I've been through many) that completely refused to hand-check ISO 800 film and insisted that it be sent through the X-ray machine.  Always.

Their attitude is nothing new.

Lisa
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147013\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not so - they did the same thing in Zurich. There was no discussion period. Either the film went through the machine or the owner didn't get through to the gate. It wasn't even open for discussion. Other than that it is a quite civilized and orderly operation compared with LHR.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jjj

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« Reply #103 on: October 24, 2007, 06:07:54 am »

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I emailed Think Tank about this somewhat disastrous flaw in their marketing and selling of the bag. And heard absolutely nothing back.  
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142790\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well a little update for folks -  I have heard something back [original mail not received] and would like to say I couldn't be more pleased with the no BS response       and the website will be ammended to reflect difficulties of international travel. I only had problems flying from Heathrow, not to Heathrow from Sweden.
I rate Think Tank extremely highly after this.

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The other problem with the Addicted is that it is so d*** big.  What do you do with it when you get to your location?  It is just too big, bulky and heavy to use as backpack.
That's exactly how I used it for a month, cycling back and fore from shooting location to where I resided. I then used a much smaller shoulder bag when wandering around. I did wonder about taking one of my other smaller backpacks in main luggage, but decided not to and it worked fine for me. Every job is different though...and I had somewhere safe to leave my bulky kit.
Walking across London, with it jam packed is another matter. So heavy! But that's not exactly the bag's fault, I just carry too many heavy things and it was so much more comfortable on my hips than my Lowepro AW Stealth backpack. And much easier than wrestling with two bags. I do have a trolley thing I can put it on for next time I do decide to walk a long way with it. But I think carrying a bag with over a third of one's body weight is always going to be tiring, so my suggestion is reusable helium balloons!    Anyone?

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What we all need is a smaller backpack to carry the most expensive bodies and lenses AND carry a laptop.  And do it ALL in ONE bag to get past the fascist baggage police.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146842\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Think Tank do make two other sizes that are smaller than the Addicted that will do that. The Addicted is simply the biggest size that can go on board, that is when security aren't being so anal. I still love the bag, way better than LowePro for carrying lots of kit when flying. Though nothing can beat the AW Stealth for light weight, albeit at the expense of not having any bulky/heavy protection for one's kit - I added foam from hard drive packaging!

I was talking to someone only last week and he commented that the metal cages, in UK airports vary in size and sometimes his bag [not sure what bag] fits and sometimes it doesn't. So the 'standards' can vary, which isn't exactly helpful.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 06:10:55 am by jjj »
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Steven Draper

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« Reply #104 on: October 24, 2007, 09:28:23 pm »

Hi

I haven't read all the posts, but Just before these security rules were enforced many airlines, including BA, were actually increasing carry on luggage allowances on many flights. The reason is simple, most folks prefer to have their bags with them, less costs to the airline in managing suitcases, more space in the hold for freight.

That did not mean that there was always enough room in the cabin for wheelie bags, and I have seen many arguments when poeple transfere onto smaller aeroplanes for connecting flights and there just isn't any on board baggage storage beyond under the seat in front or tiny overhead bins designed for coats, handbags etc.

These rules are often Government Department of transport requirements, not airlines or airport security staff just being a pain. You have to understand though that the rules for the front line staff have to be black and white, which is why trying to explain that your $20000k equipment just has to stay with you seems to get a "tough luck" responce.

Unfortunately for photograpers the rule does mean it is a pain in certain countries transprting equipment with you. There are some alternatives, I've heard that some folk use careful packing and airfreight / UPS, DHL etc, the equipment to there destination. You could also contemplate hiring certain bits!


Regards
Steven
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 09:29:33 pm by Steven Draper »
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #105 on: October 24, 2007, 11:19:36 pm »

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Hi

I haven't read all the posts, ......................
These rules are often Government Department of transport requirements, not airlines or airport security staff just being a pain. ..........................There are some alternatives, I've heard that some folk use careful packing and airfreight / UPS, DHL etc, the equipment to there destination. You could also contemplate hiring certain bits!
Regards
Steven
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You should read the whole story before making excuses for the silliness going-on in the UK. Whoever made these rules, for photographers with any quantity of expensive gear which exceeds their ridiculous limits, the UK is to be avoided, because the alternatives you mention are by-and-large non-starters. Any administration with an ounce of intelligence could craft rules for the safe carry-on of sensitive equipment. There's no sensible excuse for the present situation.
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Steven Draper

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« Reply #106 on: October 25, 2007, 10:36:40 am »

I agree the whole system is a mess in the UK. I work within the airline industry and just going to work is an unbelivable hassel. Some of the things that I have seen / experienced just drives me absolutly mad, and IMHO it will just get worse in the future.

The problem is that the Department of Transport (part of the HM government) set the rules and they can shut down or close down anyone who does not comply. The content of these rules is certainly highly discussed by my colleages, and I'm not allowed to publish my thoughts about many of them.... These rules are implemented by airlines , airport operators and security companies, generally in such a way as to remove any discression by the front line staff - if there was ever any room for discression anyway.

They are a massive pain - I find it very insulting to be screamed at by youngsters, No Liquids, No Gels.....  but certainly the airline I work for has its hands tied on many of the issues - even those which seem completely mad for crew!!

There is also some confusion, as certain airports allow one bag, plus a lap top holder. Some don't. You can go and buy tons of items in the airport shops anyway once past security which just rubs salt in.

I did place all the items from a small second bag into the Very Big pockets of a jacket I was wearing once!!!!!! Only one bag!

I agree UPSing or hiring stuff is probably way over budget for most folks just travelling on hoilday, just passing on a solution from another forum.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 10:39:45 am by Steven Draper »
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #107 on: October 25, 2007, 11:01:17 am »

Steven,

I'm very sorry to hear from an industry insider a view that it will just get worse in the future.

I intervened at the level of Willie Walsh (as you undoubtedly know) CEO of BA about this mess, because a company like BA would have more clout than an unknown Canadian raising issues with HM Government in London England. I got bounced back to Customer Relations and they told me half-truths (to be polite about them) concerning the existing policy. I was incited to do this after I saw Willie Walsh interviewed on CNN telling the whole world that he puts the convenience and comfort of his passengers at the top of his priorities. So much for the eye-wash from Willie Walsh. They can be disreputable at the very top as well as at the very bottom or anywhere in-between so why should I be surprised.

I firmly believe that increased security requirements can be handled with increased space and increased staff. However, that is what BA, BAA and the UK authorities don't want, because it costs money and someone (eventually passengers) will have to pay. With oil prices increasing like topsy and oil consumption being an increasing function of payload, it pays the airline to restrict passenger baggage and make more weight available for paying freight or reduced payload. It's also good for BAA because they wouldn't need to sacrifice square footage of high-value commercial rental income to the authorities for more hand-baggage screeners. That is what this whole mess is all about. the system is rigged to suit BA, BAA and the UK Government, the passenges be damned. At the bottom of every such problem, usually what you find is that where they stand is where they sit and where they sit causes them to do what they wish to do for maximizing income and minimizing expenses.

Fortunately, most other countries in the world are not being quite as bloody-minded about it, so for whoever has options, avoiding the UK is still the only fall-back we passengers have when our concerns get met with indifference and deception.
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GregW

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« Reply #108 on: October 25, 2007, 12:17:14 pm »

LHR is a dogs breakfast, period.  

It's not fair, however to blame any one particular airline.  Based on my own experience (Traveling through LHR on an almost weekly basis, LH and SH) passengers of ALL airlines at LHR are subject to the same rules and conditions laid down by the operator BAA.  

A recent example.  Last week while queuing for a business class flight to Zurich the lady in-front of me ended up in an argument over her violin.  She claimed it was worth about GBP 100K, but the airline (Swiss) insisted that she would have to check either it or her handbag irrespective of insurance, value or fragility.  

Most airports operate a similar level of passenger and baggage security.  It's actually my experience that Frankfurt is a good example of an even tougher regime.

The issue at LHR is not the airlines or the DOT/Government regulations it's the operator BAA.  

In response to enhanced security guidelines most airports recruited and or trained more security personnel.  Some redesigned passenger workflow's and others put in more or better infrastructure to handle longer and more detailed baggage checks.  

BAA's approach was to follow the guidelines without increasing costs.  It reduced the number of hand luggage items because that way it could manage queues better without increasing personnel.  A blunt and largely ineffective instrument and certainly less effective than the measures taken by many other airports.

As far as I'm aware both the airlines and government in the UK are pressuring BAA to change the way it operates in this respect.

The irony (In the context of this thread) is that for BA travelers things will get better.  T5 has been designed to handle modern passenger volume and security requirements.  Those traveling with other airlines will still have to put up with the squalor of the old terminal buildings like T3 and T2.

Mark instead of contacting the head of BA you should really contact the head of BAA's owners (http://www.ferrovial.es) Rafael Del Pino y Calvo Sotelo in Madrid.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 12:24:33 pm by GregW »
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #109 on: October 25, 2007, 01:21:21 pm »

Greg,

Interesting. I haven't been through Frankfurt for several years now, but I can believe it.

I know BAA is a good part of the problem. But I have no clout to deal with them. As a BA Exec Club member I was hoping to work through BA to use their leverage over BAA. But BA doesn't care to budge, because these procedures and rules are actually in their interest - unless people stop flying with them or through LHR. So regardless of where the core of the problem resides they are in bed with eachother, if I may put it that way. But you idea of complaining to the senior management of BAA is a good one nonetheless. I may well try it and see what kind of soppy answer - if any - I get back.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jjj

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« Reply #110 on: October 25, 2007, 02:23:02 pm »

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I intervened at the level of Willie Walsh (as you undoubtedly know) CEO of BA about this mess, because a company like BA would have more clout than an unknown Canadian raising issues with HM Government in London England. I got bounced back to Customer Relations and they told me half-truths (to be polite about them) concerning the existing policy. I was incited to do this after I saw Willie Walsh interviewed on CNN telling the whole world that he puts the convenience and comfort of his passengers at the top of his priorities. So much for the eye-wash from Willie Walsh. They can be disreputable at the very top as well as at the very bottom or anywhere in-between so why should I be surprised.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148597\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
BA took all the phones off the hook on the insurance side in August as they were so inundated with complaints. A good solution eh! They still keep sending me promotional email crap though.  I discovered this from a very helpful person in another area of BA who used to work in the insurance department.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #111 on: October 25, 2007, 02:29:12 pm »

What insurance issue were there so many complaints about? Lost baggage?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jjj

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« Reply #112 on: October 25, 2007, 02:59:13 pm »

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What insurance issue were there so many complaints about? Lost baggage?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148654\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well considering when I collected my luggage, the floor was barely visible for unclaimed bags lying around, very probably.
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John Camp

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« Reply #113 on: October 25, 2007, 04:26:49 pm »

When traveling to Europe or the Middle East from Minneapolis, I have a choice of going through London or through Amsterdam, using the same airline (Northwest) for either flight, with similar flight times. I go through Amsterdam simply because Schipol is clean, well-lit, organized and I have never been hassled there. Two years ago, returning from the Middle East, I had to stop in Germany and London on the way back. Went through Frankfurt on the way to Hamburg, and had no issues at all. Went on to London and then back to Minneapolis, with no real problems, but the surliness of the London employes and the dilpidation of the UK airports makes it a not-particularly-pleasant experience. I have had worse experiences in US airports in the last few years -- at Miami, in particular -- but London doesn't make it easy. This is, in fact, one place where leadership does make a huge difference: just a few pieces of paper -- written rules changes -- would make everything so much easier. The passengers would no longer argue and fight with the security people, which would make the security people happier and improve morale, it would limit confusion, etc.

Perhaps airlines should consider a "premium" ticket in both coach and business/first class, which would allow for more weight to be carried on board. It pisses me off when I see some guy who has somehow talked his way on with two huge bags (a "briefcase" that looks like an overnight bag, and an overnight bag) and then takes about three passengers' spaces in the overhead bins. But there are obviously people who need to carry small valuable items (like violins and photo gear) who need that extra space. Either that, or there should be a "secure luggage" hold in which you could check your valuable luggage for a fee, and the airline will then indemnify for any losses (including business losses) that occur as a result of baggage loss. The post office does this, FedEx and UPS do it, there's no reason the airlines couldn't do it, and even charge an insurance fee to do it.

JC
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #114 on: October 25, 2007, 05:01:01 pm »

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Perhaps airlines should consider a "premium" ticket in both coach and business/first class, which would allow for more weight to be carried on board. It pisses me off when I see some guy who has somehow talked his way on with two huge bags (a "briefcase" that looks like an overnight bag, and an overnight bag) and then takes about three passengers' spaces in the overhead bins. But there are obviously people who need to carry small valuable items (like violins and photo gear) who need that extra space. Either that, or there should be a "secure luggage" hold in which you could check your valuable luggage for a fee, and the airline will then indemnify for any losses (including business losses) that occur as a result of baggage loss. The post office does this, FedEx and UPS do it, there's no reason the airlines couldn't do it, and even charge an insurance fee to do it.

JC
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148682\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John,

None of this is practical. The first suggestion means weighing every one's carry-ons. They only do that now if they suspect a bag is heavy, or on a spot check basis. Heavens' forbid it were to become ubiquitous. The second suggestion would attract heavy insurance premiums and admin costs which will be passed on to consumers; there will be losses because baggage handling of any kind has become chaotic. In these circumstances insurance refunds who-knows-when later with deductibles and all the other trimmings are of no immediate use.

The only practical solution is a rule which allows passengers two pieces with "X" weight and "Y" dimensions containing sensitive equipment to be carried on-board. Full stop. Very simple for everyone concerned. Any airline/airport that doesn't allow this should be boycotted. If huge numbers of people start communicating this message to the appropriate authorities wherever it is a problem, the situation may eventually penetrate their thick skulls and create some progress.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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marty m

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« Reply #115 on: November 05, 2007, 10:12:56 pm »

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Any airline/airport that doesn't allow this should be boycotted. If huge numbers of people start communicating this message to the appropriate authorities wherever it is a problem, the situation may eventually penetrate their thick skulls and create some progress.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148688\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark is absolutely right.  Those who make excuses for BA or for the airport operators in the UK are naive or worse.

If business drops for BA and for tourism in the UK, the govt will be forced to take notice.

I will never fly through the UK again as long as these policies exist.  Whether that is for two months, two years or twenty years.

There are plenty of other nations to visit.  And lots of other airlines than British Airways.

As I said when I started this thread, European travelers have said that this is only happening in the UK and specifically is worse at Heathrow
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« Reply #116 on: November 06, 2007, 03:03:19 am »

Personally I doubt security is the main reason, sadly the level off "real" security at most UK airports is pretty grim.  
A recent documentary showed many of the staff sleeping on duty, reading papers instead of watching scanners etc etc.  
The level of training also varies, many haven't a clue what they are looking for.
I once watched a security guard using a bomb sniffer on bags, when he got to my bag he just ran it around the bag.  I suggested he squeeze the bag to expel the air for the detector to test, he asked why, then explained he didn't know what it did or how it worked.
They had just given it to him and told him to call someone if it bleeped.  

UPDATE  BAA has just set out new smaller limits for baggage, don't have the details yet.  Wayne
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #117 on: November 06, 2007, 07:45:20 am »

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Personally I doubt security is the main reason, sadly the level off "real" security at most UK airports is pretty grim.   
A recent documentary showed many of the staff sleeping on duty, reading papers instead of watching scanners etc etc. 
The level of training also varies, many haven't a clue what they are looking for.
I once watched a security guard using a bomb sniffer on bags, when he got to my bag he just ran it around the bag.  I suggested he squeeze the bag to expel the air for the detector to test, he asked why, then explained he didn't know what it did or how it worked.
They had just given it to him and told him to call someone if it bleeped. 

UPDATE  BAA has just set out new smaller limits for baggage, don't have the details yet.  Wayne
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

None of this is surprising. Survey after survey of airport security indicates unacceptably high rates of failure to detect suspicious materials while passengers are being subjected to all manner of inconvenience. It looks lose-lose for both security and passengers - and this is not only Heathrow, it is North American too. Companies and authorities are of course trying to do this on the cheap, which means blanket controls, no flexibility, poor training and low wages. No wonder it's a mess. As for BAA's new restrictions - please let us know what they are when you learn of them. The tighter they make them the less the incentive to use airlines flying into the UK and until the airlines themselves call a halt to this nonsense the only real option the passengers have is to keep out of England unless they really need to go there, or fly to Paris or Bruxelles and take the Eurostar into London. More expensive - but call it insurance for our equipment.
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jed best

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« Reply #118 on: November 06, 2007, 09:57:07 am »

I recently  ( August) flew into Heathrow and used a Think Tank Airport Acceleration with their low divider set. I was able to carry two Canon 1D's, a few lenses and my laptop with no problem. I didn't let on  that the bag was very heavy and was not stopped coming in to Heathrow or going out back to the US. The bag also fit within BAA's dimensions for carry on.

Jed
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #119 on: November 06, 2007, 12:24:08 pm »

Quote
I recently  ( August) flew into Heathrow and used a Think Tank Airport Acceleration with their low divider set. I was able to carry two Canon 1D's, a few lenses and my laptop with no problem. I didn't let on  that the bag was very heavy and was not stopped coming in to Heathrow or going out back to the US. The bag also fit within BAA's dimensions for carry on.

Jed
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150896\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks much for that reference. I just spent a fair bit of time on their website. The product looks excellent, though for a price. Are you happy with it?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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