EPSON 4800 & RIP = deeper blacks on matte papers?

[andyheb]

Hi there

At the moment, I can reach a Dmax of 1.65 on most matte papers with a EPSON Stylus Pro 4800. It would be nice to inrease that a bit. Something near 1.75 or higher would be great. It isn't much more, but since I saw a black like this from the HP B9180 on Hahnemuehle PhotoRag, I want it from my EPSON too.
 

Now my question: I read somewhere that a RIP can improve Dmax on matte papers. Is this true? Can someone list some numbers (Dmax) from StudioPrint or other RIP-Packages for Fine Art Printers.
I played already with an ImagePrint-Demo, but couldn't see or measure deeper blacks than with the EPSON drivers.

I know that pearl or semi-matte papers would offer a higher Dmax. But I really don't like the reflections from their surfaces. Such papers are great for commercial stuff where the colors must pop, but that's not what my images should look alike.

Thanks for any advice in advance
Andy

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hi there

At the moment, I can reach a Dmax of 1.65 on most matte papers with a EPSON Stylus Pro 4800. It would be nice to inrease that a bit. Something near 1.75 or higher would be great. It isn't much more, but since I saw a black like this from the HP B9180 on Hahnemuehle PhotoRag, I want it from my EPSON too.
 

Now my question: I read somewhere that a RIP can improve Dmax on matte papers. Is this true? Can someone list some numbers (Dmax) from StudioPrint or other RIP-Packages for Fine Art Printers.
I played already with an ImagePrint-Demo, but couldn't see or measure deeper blacks than with the EPSON drivers.

I know that pearl or semi-matte papers would offer a higher Dmax. But I really don't like the reflections from their surfaces. Such papers are great for commercial stuff where the colors must pop, but that's not what my images should look alike.

Thanks for any advice in advance
Andy
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The best place to get more answers on that is in the following list with about 8000 members:

[a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/[/url]

Right now I have several things to mention:

The K3 matte black achieves best Dmax on Epson matte papers and less on third party matte papers.

Equivalent results to the Epson results are achieved with third party matte black ink (MIS Eboni for example) on third party papers like HM PhotoRag.

The 9600 etc generation before the K3 achieved better Dmax than the K3 range in our experience.

RIPs sometimes allow better Dmax but usually there are two barriers that will limit that gain: detail loss when ink limit is too high (bleeding) but most of the time with good paper coatings you will not get there and hit on another barrier that the black pigment layer is reaching its max. natural Dmax before that point just because the black layer is at it lowest reflection point and more ink will even increase the reflection. Dye inks behave very different and increase the Dmax beyond the bleeding point. If it is for B&W check the Quadtone Rip (QTR).

Even distribution of droplets/dots increase Dmax, very fine banding hardly visible may bring measured Dmax down. So the highest resolution usually brings best Dmax, it could be that some compromises on minimum droplet size and by that different ink loads within the two highest resolutions also helps the highest resolution in getting better Dmax.

I have been through all this and right now I have a HP Z3100 that prints about 1.7 Dmax with its normal driver and inks on HM PhotoRag Bright White. The result might even be better with the HP HM varieties that I have not tested and I have not explored the quality settings of the printer on that aspect either. Then there's a new upgrade of my Wasatch SoftRip that I could test on B&W as well. I hope it needs a less twisted brain then when I used the old version on an Epson quad 9000. Above 1.8 D on matte doesn't exist for pigment inks as far as I know so it is about a 0.05-0.1 step that is left.


Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[TylerB]

...I read somewhere that a RIP can improve Dmax on matte papers. Is this true?...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121195\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not necessarily. So far my experience with StudioPrint and a 9800 is similar to the Epson driver. Once you've maxed the amount of ink the printer is capable of putting down with dot size etc. there's no more dmax to get from the materials, once the high point is determined and set. The Epson driver generally opens to those limits at one setting or another. Also, a RIP will require CMYK profiles, which generally move the K point to an ink "build" of some combination of CMYK, rather than  the 100% GCR the Epson driver seems to do at K. This has some advantages, but rarely for dmax.
With many matte papers and the UCK3 inks, 100%K ink with no CMY will achieve a higher dmax than a build. Not always, but often.
There are many reasons to use a RIP, dmax, for UCK3 inks and the popular materials often used, is probably not one of them.
Beyond that see Ernst's post.
Tyler

[madmanchan]

My experiences match Ernst's. I am seeing lower d-max with K3 on matte papers compared to the previous UltraChrome inks (but higher d-max on PK papers), esp. on third-party papers. On the other hand, with Epson Velvet Fine Art with K3 inks, I can get a d-max of 1.77 with the ABW driver. So it is technically possible, just something to do with the interaction between K3 and paper coatings ...

[andyheb]

Hello everyone

First, many thanks for your answers.

@Tyler: You've mentioned reasons to use a RIP. Besides all the layout and productivity stuff (which I can get from QImage for much less money), the Print-Press-Simulation/Proofing (I won't need that either) the only thing left for me is image quality. Since the EPSON drivers are very good in these days, have you seen improvement of image quality with StudioPrint that makes it worth thinking about buying it? I'm just talking colors here. I don't make that much b/w prints.

@Eric: Do you mean with "ABW driver" EPSON's "advanced black and white mode" in their driver? How did you reach the mentioned Dmax? Will you tell us the trick? And can I do it for color prints too?

The strange thing is, that I've seen black patches from EPSON ColorBase targets on USFAP that are blacker, near Dmax 1,7 (as far as I can remember), then everything else the printer spit out during my tests. And, worse than that, as soon as I turn on the ColorBase-Calibration and/or using a selfmade (Eye One Match) profile, Dmax starts to drop.


Going crazy with blacks!
Andy

[TylerB]

Hello everyone

First, many thanks for your answers.

@Tyler:...Since the EPSON drivers are very good in these days, have you seen improvement of image quality with StudioPrint that makes it worth thinking about buying it?...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121573\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

as usual with all things digital, there is no yes or no answer... it depends. So much depends on profiles, and CMYK is such a different animal than RGB, that there is no apples and apples comparison. For me, after a lot of tweaking, which StudioPrint let's one do, I see an improvement, I don't know if others see it or not. Also, since I have the RIP, I have not tested the RGB driver much at all.
But I have to say, the RIP gives the user so much setup control over every little thing about how inks and dots are used, that it would be easy to create behavior that is not as good as the RGB driver...
What improvement may be possible comes at a cost, a steep learning curve, trial and error, and then add the mangled beast of CMYK profiling, and which software will be used for that.
It would be interesting to have an advanced ColorBurst user pipe in here, or anyone else using a RIP.
Tyler

[Brian Gilkes]

There is a trade off between DMax and shadow detail separation too.
Aiming for maximum shadow luminosity without compression in my (Les Walkling) profiles I find the highest  DMax I get with K3 inkset on matte (HPR, Crane Portfolio, Awagami Bizan etc) is around 1.6.
I'm also using Quad Tone RIP ans Advanced B&W with profiles  but can't push that black much further. I can deepen it's visual luminosity by nudging deep shadow colour and directing luminosity edited in Layer Styles. The perception of black is not the same as the measurement of black. For instance black on a lustre/gloss paper with PK is much greater than that obtained with matte papers and MK- approx Delta D= 0.7-0.8. Despite this the matte may look just as dark and often "richer" and possessing a greater presence. This can be increased by local contrast  and other perceptual edits.
I am interested in this "Eboni" ink from MIS. Can anyone with experience using it  report on any increase in DMax and ant problems with linearity, nozzle blocks etc?
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au

[madmanchan]

@Eric: Do you mean with "ABW driver" EPSON's "advanced black and white mode" in their driver? How did you reach the mentioned Dmax? Will you tell us the trick? And can I do it for color prints too?

The strange thing is, that I've seen black patches from EPSON ColorBase targets on USFAP that are blacker, near Dmax 1,7 (as far as I can remember), then everything else the printer spit out during my tests. And, worse than that, as soon as I turn on the ColorBase-Calibration and/or using a selfmade (Eye One Match) profile, Dmax starts to drop.
Going crazy with blacks!
Andy
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Yes, by "ABW" I mean the Advanced B&W Photo mode. I did nothing special for Velvet Fine Art. My settings were: Media Type = Velvet Fine Art, 1440 dpi, High Speed off, Platen Gap = Wide. Note that I am using a 3800, which uses a different screening algorithm compared to the 4800. ColorBase only affects the RGB color driver, not the ABW mode. For VFA, and VFA only, I can get a pretty decent d-max (1.77) in ABW mode. It is less (about 1.7) for RGB mode, again for VFA paper.

I agree, there is something funny about ColorBase: the black that comes out of it is incredible. And of course it's printing in color mode. I have no idea how CB works, though, or what it's really doing underneath. I've tried to fiddle with the RGB driver to figure out how I can reproduce the deep black, but nothing works. My guess is that the ink limits are different in the driver compared to CB.