P45/Mamiya 645 AFD II Experiences

[thsinar]

Dear Graham,

we are right now starting to look for beta-testers out in the market. Beta-testing of the Exposure will start this summer (Europe), with plans to have a beta-version to be released by autumn.

If you are interested to be one of our beta-tester, then let me know with a PM, and I shall include you to the list of candidates.

And yes, it shall include Stefan's "highlight Recovery".

Best,
Thierry

I can vouch for that. I recently did a shoot in which I got a small blown out highlight on some skin (not pure white but blown out in one channel) and processing in Captureshop gave me a blown out look, so I tried converting with Brumbaer and it looked very natural and with all the detail back in there.

It's not as if I had simply overexposed the scene - there was a high dynamic range and some shadows were going to black. There were people in the shot so I couldn't use HDR either.

I understand that Exposure will have this feature built in. Looking forward to that. Any news on the release date?
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[rainer_v]

edmund, you do not understand the highlight recovery. its not a profile. HR is done with the raw data and with mapping the info of the not-blown-out two ( or one ) channels, not with a soft curve at its top. many treads about this now here in LL if you are interested how it works,,,,,

[eronald]

edmund, you do not understand the highlight recovery. its not a profile. HR is done with the raw data and with mapping the info of the not-blown-out two ( or one ) channels, not with a soft curve at its top. many treads about this now here in LL if you are interested how it works,,,,,
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Yes, yes, I know that you people have this wonderful highlight recovery feature in your software which is unique, thanks to the pioneering work by Brumbaer. I am not saying anything bad about it, to the contrary - but what it does is save blown highlights if I understand rightly.

However, the issue which is being discussed here by people "stuck with" Phase backs and Capture One applies to normally exposed shots where all the information is present:

There is always the issue of how the gradation captured by the back (14 bits)  is mapped onto the final printed or screen image which has a much more restricted display range. This is done via a tone curve, or rather a profile in color. And as a linear image is flat, the tone curve will be S shaped, and will accentuate certain regions which are of interest to the photographer.

It would seem that the existing Phase profiles are not perfect for everybody. Which is to be expected - you cannot make a tone curve that will please everyone, that is why there are so many film emulsions and why people rework imagery in Photoshop with tone masks.

In the past I have made tone curves that were useful for portraits by lifting the darker tones, filling in the shadows but thereby compressing the highlight information. These have been used a lot by the Leica community; they were intended for portraits.

Now I'm suggesting I make some profiles -for the Phase backs- which would compress the shadows and leave more space for the highlight information.

Of course you are free to do similar things for the Sinar backs with the software that you have licensed, or ask me to do them for you. My peculiarity is that I have done this a lot, and that I have assembled a custom software suite which allows me to generate and edit profiles that can be used by camera and software manufacturers without paying royalties to any third party.


Edmund

[cbarber]

I am another new P45 user and primarily do landscape type work. I chose the Contax camera over the Mamiya and Hasselblad. So far I am very happy with the camera and lenses, it works great, feels great and personally I prefer its looks to the others. The last couple of years I used the Canon 1ds Mark II.

Without going into too much detail, my search for a back took several months but at the end of the day the decision was made between Hasselblad and Phase One. That Hasselblad and Phase One are the only manufacturers selling their backs in Canada was a factor. Leaf used to have a dealer here but no more and Sinar, while they have a dealer the dealer doesn’t sell their digital backs due to an exclusive arrangement with Phase One. I would love to have had access to the emotion 75 and Aptus 75.  

Mort, I enjoyed reading your field report. I haven’t done any quantitative testing with my back and your results surprised me. I have not noticed the limited latitude in the mid to highlights as you have.

I have been happy so far with the DR coming out of the Phase One. It’s certainly a big improvement to me from my Canon 1ds II files. With the Canon I frequently got clipping in both the highlights and shadows and had to bracket quite a bit, but with the P45 I definitely capture a wider range of tones and I don’t have to bracket so drastically – not scientific but my experience so far. Watching my exposures, and careful processing I am noticing a wider range including holding more tone in the highlights as well as significant more detail in the shadows. Using the highlight recovery tools in Lightroom has been wonderful. I do agree with you about hoping the 45+ will bring more headroom to the highlights though. Hopefully, by the time I get the 45+ I’ll be able to open the files in Lightroom.

I started off using C1 but now use Lightroom to process my files. C1 is a great program but the current version seems a little old next to Lightroom. I agree with a lot of people who think C1 creates a slightly better file and by that I mean there is a certain quality to the file, more fine detail in the midtones and shadows that I can’t seem to reproduce outside of C1. But, in my opinion, Lightroom processes the file better, has more control and is a joy to use. I am hoping when the update comes out for Lightroom I’ll be able to get closer to regaining the detail C1 gets. Mind you, I am also looking forward to seeing what Phase One brings out in C1 4.

While I am using Lightroom to process my files I am still using iView as my DAM and don’t see that changing anytime soon. I am adjusting and reevaluating my workflow but Lightroom isn’t a substitute for iView yet.

When I was shooting film, I used Lee gradated filters all the time. I haven’t used them since I went digital but now I am thinking of keeping the ND filters with me just as an option if the light warrants using them. I must do a test to see if and how much of a loss of detail there is.

Like you, the battery issue in the back seems to be over-dramatised. I am not going through the battery as fast as I was lead to believe. Same goes with the battery in the camera, it’s lasting longer than expected too.

Regards,
Clive Barber

[Mort54]

I have been happy so far with the DR coming out of the Phase One. It’s certainly a big improvement to me from my Canon 1ds II files. .....

Hi Clive. Regarding the limited highlight latitude I described in my initial post, it is probably not at issue after all, i.e. the limited latitude is a fact, but I've found it usually has no practical consequences. I've processed a number of images now in which I simply exposed for the hightlights, to make sure they were just below clipping, and let everything else fall where it may. These were compositions in which I couldn't really use the spit NDs. With bright highlights, this typically results in underexposed midtones. In raw conversion in Lightroom or ACR 4.1, I just brightened the midtones to get them back to where I want them, and the results are simply beautiful. You can brighten underexposed midtones and shadows from the P45 by a huge amount and not suffer any obvious consequences (at least I haven't seen any so far, tho if I brightened the files by three or four stops, I'm sure I'd start seeing some artifacts). In the brightened areas, I don't see any noise or posterization. So based on this, in the future I will simply expose for the highlights, let the other tones fall where they may, and then brighten in post processing (I'm sure most long time MFDB users already know this, but since I'm a new user, it's something I'm just learning). I'm sure there'll be exceptions to this, but for now, the P45 shadow captures are just so good that brightening them in post processing doesn't seem to be an issue.

By the way, it may just be my imagination, but I used ACR 4.1 last night on some of my files and I think I'm getting even higher quality raw conversions than I get with Lightroom, which I already prefer to Capture ONE.

[pss]

Hi Clive. Regarding the limited highlight latitude I described in my initial post, it is probably not at issue after all, i.e. the limited latitude is a fact, but I've found it usually has no practical consequences. I've processed a number of images now in which I simply exposed for the hightlights, to make sure they were just below clipping, and let everything else fall where it may. These were compositions in which I couldn't really use the spit NDs. With bright highlights, this typically results in underexposed midtones. In raw conversion in Lightroom or ACR 4.1, I just brightened the midtones to get them back to where I want them, and the results are simply beautiful. You can brighten underexposed midtones and shadows from the P45 by a huge amount and not suffer any obvious consequences (at least I haven't seen any so far, tho if I brightened the files by three or four stops, I'm sure I'd start seeing some artifacts). In the brightened areas, I don't see any noise or posterization. So based on this, in the future I will simply expose for the highlights, let the other tones fall where they may, and then brighten in post processing (I'm sure most long time MFDB users already know this, but since I'm a new user, it's something I'm just learning). I'm sure there'll be exceptions to this, but for now, the P45 shadow captures are just so good that brightening them in post processing doesn't seem to be an issue.

By the way, it may just be my imagination, but I used ACR 4.1 last night on some of my files and I think I'm getting even higher quality raw conversions than I get with Lightroom, which I already prefer to Capture ONE.
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i haven't noticed any loss in the highlights with my P30....i do the same thing as i did with my P20...expose for the highlights and open up the shadows.....this works even better with the P30 then with the P20.....
i also use LR exclusively now and love the results...waiting impatientily for LR1.1 after downloading CR 4.1...
there are some stats about the P+ series that i noticed...i don't know if this has anything to do with all this but the antiblooming is up 2 (!) full stops from the regular P series.....i really don't judge anything by its stats so i will wait to see if this actually makes a difference....

[hubell]

Hi All. I've just returned from two weeks of intensive shooting with my new P45 and Mamiya 645 AFD II in the Tetons and Yellowstone. The P45 and the Mamiya AFD II were a joy to use, and tho I've only been able to complete a quick look at my take (I didn't get home until late last night), I'm very happy with the results. Here's a brief summary of my thoughts on these tools, for those who are still considering whether to make the plunge.


Second, with all of the talk about superior dynamic range on MFDBs, I was somewhat dismayed to see that the P45 has very little mid-tone to highlight latitude. Specifically, in my testing, the P45 only provides about 2.3 stops between midtone and a bright highlight. If you put a highlight at anything more than 2.3 stops over midtone, it'll be blown. This doesn't mean that the P45 doesn't have tremendous dynamic range - it just means that most of that dynamic range is in the shadows. Which is why P45 shadow tonality is so spectacular. And unlike with the current crop of DSLRs, you can brighten the shadows if need be by a significant amount without suffering noise and posterization. Still, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that my P45+ (hopefully shipping soon) will have a new tone curve which yields a little more highlight headroom. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone else on their experiences with P45 highlight dynamic range, and whether the P45+ does anything about this.


Regards,
Mort54

Mort:
The conventional "wisdom" here on metering with digital capture has been to "expose to the right" by setting an exposure that is as far to the right on the histogram without the highlights touching the right end of the histogram.  I am personally finding this to be a flawed approach as it often leads to blown highlights. I often THINK I am not up against the right side of the histogram, but when I open up the files, there are blown highlights. Perhaps it is too difficult to see the small amount of highlight info off the scale, particularly on these LCDs in the sun. Blocked shadows I can deal with and accept. They were always a part of my life shooting transparency film and making Cibachrome prints. However, once the highlights are gone, that's it. Moreover, the shadow detail with MFDBs is so good that I can often dig detail out without unacceptable noise.
My practice now is to expose to the right but still leave myself a comfortable margin on the right side of the histogram, and then in appropriate cases with contrasty light and a lot of information down at the shadow end of the histogram, shoot another two or even three exposures at one, two and three stops down. Then, I have plenty of good information to blend if I need to. There are many on this forum with much more experience with digital capture than I have, and I would be interested to hear about their metering strategies in landscape work, and whether they still use ND grad filters.

[cbarber]

Mort:
The conventional "wisdom" here on metering with digital capture has been to "expose to the right" by setting an exposure that is as far to the right on the histogram without the highlights touching the right end of the histogram.  I am personally finding this to be a flawed approach as it often leads to blown highlights. I often THINK I am not up against the right side of the histogram, but when I open up the files, there are blown highlights. Perhaps it is too difficult to see the small amount of highlight info off the scale, particularly on these LCDs in the sun.

I have experienced this as well. I think I am right up against the right side with a tiny bit of room to spare and then when I open the file I discover one or more channels blown out. Usually it is not by much but not what I was expecting. Perhaps, as you say, it is because I can't see the histogram properly in the sun. In any event, I am trying to leave a tiny bit more room on the right side than I used to.

[Dustbak]

This is my way of working which works for me (until someone passes along and learns me a better way to do it )

When I can do only 1 exposure I tend to expose to the right as far as possible. A tiny bit of clipping in most cases means not all channels have been lost but only one or 2 (at least on my back it does).  This I don't care about, casts can be resolved by taking or having a reference shot.

Most information will be stored in the highest bits, these are closest to clipping. Not exposing as far as possible means you are not using all of them.

The files taken this way always look best to me.


When being able to take multiple shots. I just take a bunch of bracketed shots and blend them. There I don't care whether highlights get blown or shadows are closed as long as I have enough shots with enough exposure space in between them.

[Mort54]

Paul and Howard. Yep, now that I've processed a few images in which I exposed for the highlights (essentially I exposed to the right), I'm finding that all I have to do is open the shadows and underexposed midtones in post and all is well. With my DSLR, image quality usually suffered when I did this, but with the P45, I'm not seeing any degradation (with reasonable brightness adjustments, of course). For special cases, I'll just shoot an extra shot or two and do a little blending in post, but I'm no longer concerned about the highlight headroom issue I raised at the beginning of this thread.

As for the histogram and clipping highlights, I've been a little confused on this myself. The Phase histogram consists of the luminance histogram, and the individual red, green and blue curves. The curves are really hard to see, so just going by the luminance histogram won't guarantee there isn't any clipping. You need to look at the curves. But still, as you guys have pointed out, sometimes I think I've got margin and in fact don't. So far at least, the blinking highlights screen seems to be pretty reliable, so I usually have that as my default review screen, and then quickly click to the histogram as needed.

[pss]

Paul and Howard. Yep, now that I've processed a few images in which I exposed for the highlights (essentially I exposed to the right), I'm finding that all I have to do is open the shadows and underexposed midtones in post and all is well. With my DSLR, image quality usually suffered when I did this, but with the P45, I'm not seeing any degradation (with reasonable brightness adjustments, of course). For special cases, I'll just shoot an extra shot or two and do a little blending in post, but I'm no longer concerned about the highlight headroom issue I raised at the beginning of this thread.

As for the histogram and clipping highlights, I've been a little confused on this myself. The Phase histogram consists of the luminance histogram, and the individual red, green and blue curves. The curves are really hard to see, so just going by the luminance histogram won't guarantee there isn't any clipping. You need to look at the curves. But still, as you guys have pointed out, sometimes I think I've got margin and in fact don't. So far at least, the blinking highlights screen seems to be pretty reliable, so I usually have that as my default review screen, and then quickly click to the histogram as needed.
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i agree the blinking highlight screen sometimes is just easier.....i am amazed with the amount of detail i can pull out of the shadows in LR.....not more then in C1, but with the fill light slider, it really makes it so much easier...

[Graham Mitchell]

As it happens, you were right about the new Macs. The new Macbook Pros have been announced and they all fit a maximum of 4GB RAM now. They all seem to support dual DVI too. Good news.