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Author Topic: P45/Mamiya 645 AFD II Experiences  (Read 13015 times)

Mort54

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P45/Mamiya 645 AFD II Experiences
« on: June 04, 2007, 12:41:48 pm »

Hi All. I've just returned from two weeks of intensive shooting with my new P45 and Mamiya 645 AFD II in the Tetons and Yellowstone. The P45 and the Mamiya AFD II were a joy to use, and tho I've only been able to complete a quick look at my take (I didn't get home until late last night), I'm very happy with the results. Here's a brief summary of my thoughts on these tools, for those who are still considering whether to make the plunge.

First, everything worked flawlessly. Using a digital back is simplicity itself and really no different, as far as useability goes, from using a 35mm DSLR. Even tho the Mamiya is one of the lightest MF options out there, it's stilll pretty heavy, and that's definitely a consideratiion on long hikes.

Second, with all of the talk about superior dynamic range on MFDBs, I was somewhat dismayed to see that the P45 has very little mid-tone to highlight latitude. Specifically, in my testing, the P45 only provides about 2.3 stops between midtone and a bright highlight. If you put a highlight at anything more than 2.3 stops over midtone, it'll be blown. This doesn't mean that the P45 doesn't have tremendous dynamic range - it just means that most of that dynamic range is in the shadows. Which is why P45 shadow tonality is so spectacular. And unlike with the current crop of DSLRs, you can brighten the shadows if need be by a significant amount without suffering noise and posterization. Still, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that my P45+ (hopefully shipping soon) will have a new tone curve which yields a little more highlight headroom. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone else on their experiences with P45 highlight dynamic range, and whether the P45+ does anything about this.

Third, all the talk about short batter life on MFDBs and the Mamiya 645 turned out to be a non-issue. I had two batteries with me for the P45, and typically one battery lasted for a full days shooting. I had also heard that the Mamiya 645 was a real battery hog so I brought along three battery holders for the body. Each holder uses six AA batteries. I went almost one and a half weeks before I exhausted my first set of batteries. These results included lots of cold morning shooting. Bottom line - for my kind of shooting (primarily landscapes), battery life is a none issue.

Fourth, take lots and lots of storage with you on these kinds of long duration trips. I took along my aging laptop with about 56 gigs of spare space on the hard drive. I also took along my Epson P2000 with about 30 gigs of spare storage, and a separate 200 gig external drive. I filled up my laptop and the Epson (duplicate images). After that, I had to juggle things to make sure I always had two copies of each file stored somewhere. My laptop was also woefully underpowered as far as opening these huge files, so all I was able to do was view previews in Lightroom. My next purchase is definitely going to be a new Mac Book laptop with 4 gigs of RAM, the fastest processor I can get, and as much hard drive space as possible, with two ruggedized external drives for storage. Since the current crop of Mac Books currently only support up to 2 gigs of RAM, I'm going to have to wait for the new models to be introduced (rumored third quarter). I really think 4 gigs of RAM is mandatory.

I'll leave it at this for now. I'm especially looking for feedback on my highlight dynamic range findings for the P45, and whether I can expect anything different for the P45+.

Regards,
Mort54

Edit: My most used, and favorite, lens on this trip was the 55-110, with the 150 coming in a close second. The 35 and 300 saw only occasional use, but for certain compositions and perspectives, were indispensible. One other point - I took the back off of the body every night and inspected the sensor for dust. Only on the first day did I find two minor dust spots, and my Rocket Blower took care of them. Compared to DSLRs, cleaning a MFDB sensor is a piece of cake.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 09:53:30 pm by Mort54 »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2007, 05:20:37 pm »

Quote
Since the current crop of Mac Books currently only support up to 2 gigs of RAM, I'm going to have to wait for the new models to be introduced (rumored third quarter). I really think 4 gigs of RAM is mandatory.

The current Macbook Pro 17" 2.33GHz supports up to 3GB RAM. See http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/

SO why 3GB and not 4GB? See http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=321

How do you know the next generation will take 4GB?
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2007, 06:36:51 pm »

Thanks a lot for the field report, few people write these and even fewer seem to use the P45 for landscape work.

What you write about the DR is interesting, especially since nobody had mentioned this behaviour before.

The relationship between default curve and apparent DR is obvious, but some people still seem to compare shadow noise between cameras without taking into consideration the curve used by the camera.

Considering a given DR, it is obvious that a back with a contrasty curve will have cleaner shadows compared to a different back whose default curve is less contrasty. Put it otherwise, comparing shadow noise alone is meaningless.

Regards,
Bernard

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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2007, 06:54:50 pm »

I don't get it, these sensors are usually linearized, pretty much, the curves are applied by the profile, or am I wrong ?

Edmund

Quote
Thanks a lot for the field report, few people write these and even fewer seem to use the P45 for landscape work.

What you write about the DR is interesting, especially since nobody had mentioned this behaviour before.

The relationship between default curve and apparent DR is obvious, but some people still seem to compare shadow noise between cameras without taking into consideration the curve used by the camera.

Considering a given DR, it is obvious that a back with a contrasty curve will have cleaner shadows compared to a different back whose default curve is less contrasty. Put it otherwise, comparing shadow noise alone is meaningless.

Regards,
Bernard
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ternst

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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2007, 07:35:56 pm »

MORT:

Add me to the list of landscape photogs using the same setup as you - after photographing great waterfalls in Arkansas for a month (to complete a new waterfall picture book project that is due out soon) I just spent a week shooting with David Muench in Monument Valley. No issues with the batteries either - mine have always lasted quite a while. I'm a happy camper and also waiting for the plus back to show up - I shot some star trail waterfall photos and while I got some good images while being limited to 30-minute exposures, I'm looking forward to the 60-minute exposure I will be able to shoot with the plus back...

Tim Ernst in Arkansas
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2007, 07:47:21 pm »

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I don't get it, these sensors are usually linearized, pretty much, the curves are applied by the profile, or am I wrong ?

Edmund
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if you work in C1, a profile will be attached...you will never see the "raw" file.....i guess this is similar in LR where some "settings" are applied....so either way the raw file is only see through whatever "glasses" you look at it......

and either way a file from a 1DsmkII will have less information then a file from a P20......

about shadow noise: i think that everybody looks for different things in files....everybody has different needs.....there are people singing the praises of noise reduction software and i think all NR software result are more or less horrible....i love the "grain" the 5D produces at 3200.....i love the way the P30 looks at 800....i hate the muddy/watercolor look of all NR software......

if one looks at a B&W print (analogue) from 4x5 neg, you can see the infinite detail in the shadows....because it is analoge.....a P45 or P30 does a pretty good job, the canons make a mess....this is actually one area that the P+ series is supposed to improve on.....even cleaner shadows...i can't wait to do a test....
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Mort54

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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2007, 09:29:03 pm »

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Add me to the list of landscape photogs using the same setup as you - after photographing great waterfalls in Arkansas for a month (to complete a new waterfall picture book project that is due out soon) I just spent a week shooting with David Muench in Monument Valley. No issues with the batteries either - mine have always lasted quite a while. I'm a happy camper and also waiting for the plus back to show up .....
Hi Tim. I've had your site bookmarked for some time and enjoy reading your Cloudland Journal. In fact, I visited it this morning and looked over your Monument Valley pics and loved them all. You do nice work. I'm especially envious of your Yellowstone gallery. I've been going there every year since 1984 and have yet to get wildlife shots as nice as the ones you captured. I've been trying to talk myself into a winter shoot for quite awhile now and seeing your shots just reinforces that. Maybe this winter.... Anyway, thanks for your reply.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 09:43:03 pm by Mort54 »
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Mort54

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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2007, 09:32:46 pm »

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How do you know the next generation will take 4GB?
Hi Graham. Actually I don't know they'll go to 4 GB in the next version, although from the tech sites I read, it sounds like the next Mac Book will definitely go to Intel's Santa Rosa chipset, and I believe that will support the higher RAM space. While the Mac Book Pro may already support 3 GB, I'm only looking for a travel notebook, and since I'm weighed down enough already, my preference leans toward the smaller and lighter Mac Book. Thanks for the reply.
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Mort54

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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2007, 09:40:16 pm »

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What you write about the DR is interesting, especially since nobody had mentioned this behaviour before.
Hi Bernard. I had posted before asking about P45 dynamic range, and especially about the highlight end of the dynamic range. I got a number of qualitative replies (typically "P45 dynamic range is great"), but nobody provided any quantitative replies. Anyway, I finally did my own testing to arrive at the 2.3 stops number, and subsequently confirmed it in actual real world shooting. It turns out that most white puffy clouds typically top out around 3 to 3.5 stops over midtone foliage, so I found myself using split graduated neutral density filters a lot during my landscapes. I'd love Phase One to adjust the curve in the P45+ to support three stops from midtones to max highlights, since that would eliminate most of the need for the split NDs (at least for many landscape scenes). I'm also suspicious about split NDs degrading sharpness to some extent (I figure anything you put in front of the lens can only hurt sharpness). Ironically, my Nikon D200 typically provides three stops of latitude between midtones and highlights, and the new Canon 1D III has a mode that supports 3.5 stops (while sacrificing some shadow dynamic range).
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 09:42:03 pm by Mort54 »
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Mort54

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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2007, 09:48:59 pm »

Sorry, I meant to edit my original post and mistakenly hit reply.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 09:50:17 pm by Mort54 »
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Don Libby

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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2007, 09:55:25 pm »

Mort – Thank you for your very timely information..  I too shoot landscape with a Mamiya AFD II but use a P30 (loaner – waiting for my Plus back).  I’m headed up to Canyonlands next week and will be camping and shooting there for about 3-4 days.  It appears from your post that I should be okay with my two batteries for the back and maybe an extra set for the body.

Interested in what type lens you’re using.  I go anywhere from a 35 up to 300 for landscape.  I also agree that the files of the P30 compared to my 1Ds II are huge!

The Canon is crying as it already know I’m not taking it on this trip – just the Mamiya and P30.

BTW I use a Dell XPS M1210 dual core w/2Gig (could go up to 4) while I'm on the road without any problems so far.  And no, I'm not attempting to get into any discussion of PC vs Mac  

Don

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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2007, 10:02:36 pm »

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I don't get it, these sensors are usually linearized, pretty much, the curves are applied by the profile, or am I wrong ?

Edmund
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You are most probably right, but I was speaking about the result after application of the default curve belonging to the default profile.

Regards,
Bernard

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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2007, 10:02:54 pm »

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Hi Graham. Actually I don't know they'll go to 4 GB in the next version, although from the tech sites I read, it sounds like the next Mac Book will definitely go to Intel's Santa Rosa chipset, and I believe that will support the higher RAM space. While the Mac Book Pro may already support 3 GB, I'm only looking for a travel notebook, and since I'm weighed down enough already, my preference leans toward the smaller and lighter Mac Book. Thanks for the reply.
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i am pretty sure that the new macbooks support 3gb ram....prices are way down on the 2gb chips....and the extra 1gb really makes a difference for CS3 and such....
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Mort54

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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2007, 10:08:09 pm »

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i am pretty sure that the new macbooks support 3gb ram....prices are way down on the 2gb chips....and the extra 1gb really makes a difference for CS3 and such....
Thanks Graham. I'll look into it. I need something better than what I have for a trip toward the end of summer. Right now Apple is only advertising 2 GB for the Mac Books, but I just heard that Corsair is now offering 2 GB notebook memory cards, so if the existing Mac Books will support them, that would yield the 3 GB number you mentioned.
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Mort54

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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2007, 10:11:10 pm »

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Interested in what type lens you’re using.  I go anywhere from a 35 up to 300 for landscape.  I also agree that the files of the P30 compared to my 1Ds II are huge!
Hi Don. I just edited my original post with lens information, but to recap, I took the 35, 55-110, 150 and 300 on this trip. The 80 stayed at home. The 55-110 was my most used and favorite lens, with the 150 a close second. The 35 and 300 saw only a little use, but for what I used them for, they were definitely necessary, so I'm glad I brought them along.
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Lester

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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2007, 11:08:28 pm »

The 55-110 is also my favorite lens on my P45, I do shoot landscape a lot with that combination. Also the 55-110 make a great panorama lens. I used that lens to shoot a 7 shot images at 110mm and it came out prefect. I used the manual version and it only have 2 optical center. It also a sharp lens.


Quote
Hi Don. I just edited my original post with lens information, but to recap, I took the 35, 55-110, 150 and 300 on this trip. The 80 stayed at home. The 55-110 was my most used and favorite lens, with the 150 a close second. The 35 and 300 saw only a little use, but for what I used them for, they were definitely necessary, so I'm glad I brought them along.
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snickgrr

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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2007, 01:09:44 am »

Mort,

Since the Mamiya has a nifty bracketing mode why not use it instead of split ND's and layer up the resulting differently exposeed files in PShop?

Paul
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 01:38:08 am by snickgrr »
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thsinar

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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2007, 01:57:30 am »

concerning "High-lights", DR and "High-lights Recovery":

I had the possibility this last weekend to go out and shoot some landscapes in Australia with a photographer using the eMotion 75.

Although the red  "warning" was almsot constantly on, showing blown-out high-lights in the clouds, we were able to recover them easily whith the Brumbaer tools. When I say "easily", I mean that we have been able to recover up to 2,5 f-stops, if not more.

The comment from this photographer about this high-light recovery included in the Brumbaer tools, to Stefan Hess:

"Your highlight recovery is nothing short of sensational! Stephan, your re-mapping method, is nothing short of a miracle, as I stated before. I'll tell everyone".

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Second, with all of the talk about superior dynamic range on MFDBs, I was somewhat dismayed to see that the P45 has very little mid-tone to highlight latitude. Specifically, in my testing, the P45 only provides about 2.3 stops between midtone and a bright highlight. If you put a highlight at anything more than 2.3 stops over midtone, it'll be blown.

Regards,
Mort54

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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2007, 05:33:34 am »

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"Your highlight recovery is nothing short of sensational! Stephan, your re-mapping method, is nothing short of a miracle, as I stated before. I'll tell everyone".

I can vouch for that. I recently did a shoot in which I got a small blown out highlight on some skin (not pure white but blown out in one channel) and processing in Captureshop gave me a blown out look, so I tried converting with Brumbaer and it looked very natural and with all the detail back in there.

It's not as if I had simply overexposed the scene - there was a high dynamic range and some shadows were going to black. There were people in the shot so I couldn't use HDR either.

I understand that Exposure will have this feature built in. Looking forward to that. Any news on the release date?
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eronald

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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2007, 05:40:47 am »

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You are most probably right, but I was speaking about the result after application of the default curve belonging to the default profile.

Regards,
Bernard
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For the Phase backs. I have made a lot of profiles already for Capture One.

I'd very happy to make people a profile that has better highlight gradation, if that's what they want. Profile editing is what I do these days.

I'll need sample imagery to do the testing. Can people please send me some of the relevant Raw files via www.yousendit.com, and indicate  which profile they were using to postprocess in C1, and which parts of the image they would like to see detail in  ?

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 05:55:28 am by eronald »
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