ACR's new sharp tools alter your digital workflow?

[photographist]

Do the new tools and capabilities provided in Lightroom and ACR 4.1 move the best the best place for sharpening from the end of the workflow process to the raw processing/development phase?   I’d like to open up a discussion on this question.

  There seem to be two general schools of thought about raw processing and editing vs. Photoshop (read post-raw conversion) processing.   The first school of thought is to accomplish as much as you can with the image while in the RAW state (I won’t go into the technical reasoning here) and complete the process in Photoshop.  The second school of thought is to use the raw processor to prepare the image for processing in Photoshop (etal).    Personally, I follow both of these processes depending upon the visualization I have for a given image.  

  However, in either case a cardinal rule has been to do the sharpening after sizing, after merging and when you’re ready to print.   Does  the advent of the new sharpening controls within ACR 4.1 change this rule?    Using PhotoKit Sharpener, some sharpening is accomplished at different places along the workflow’s path.  Is it wise to sharpen using ACR 4.1 tools as part of the Raw development process?    The basic reasoning for the “cardinal rule” has been to minimize any negative effects sharpening can bring to an image as the photographer manipulates and works his/her vision within Photoshop.    

  Do the new capabilities and the tools that provide effectively change the role and/or placement of sharpening within the workflow?

  If so, how does ACR 4.1’s new capabilities effect this process?

  Would love to hear your thoughts and opinions!

[Christopher]

I would state it the following. Years ago when Raw was really new and raw converters were real crap, you did the most stuff in PS, now it changed quite a bit. ACR 4 was excellent and 4.1 is even better. I think there is NO reason to do anything in Photohsop except selective editing.

[Stephen Starkman]

Jeff's article on Photoshopnews.com today explains it well.

As I understand it, the new sharpening tools are intended to allow you to perform capture sharpening, which is the initial sharpening applied to RAW images in a complete sharpening workflow (Bruce Fraser introduced this concept). Output sharpening, Jeff infers, is still meant to be handled in Photoshop although they're "working on it".

I'm curious to see how PK Sharpener will adapt....

Stephen

[Schewe]

Output sharpening, Jeff infers, is still meant to be handled in Photoshop although they're "working on it".
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Correct...I think (and believe Bruce would agree) that Camera Raw 4.1 now has the tools to do optimal capture sharpening-course you will have to determine what is "optimal" for yourself...but I think the current sharpening when viewed at 100% (1:1) can now be relied upon to show you how to sharpen the image-not make it look "crunchy" but make it look "good" (which is not to say that you want to sharpen for intended output yet or for any special effect).

Once you have a "good" capture sharpening for the image type and capture size (your camera) you can create a preset to apply upon import-and if you select the CR preference to set default by ISO you get even further along the way by incorporating noise reduction by ISO as well.

You'll still need to do "Creative Sharpening" for selective work (in Photoshop) and at this point you'll still need to do "Output Sharpening"...we're woking on that part now but I really can't make any other comments...nor can I comment on how this will effect the product "PhotoKit Sharpener" in the future other than to say we intend to continue developing PKS for version 2.0. I just don't know when it may see light of day...

[bjanes]

Once you have a "good" capture sharpening for the image type and capture size (your camera) you can create a preset to apply upon import-and if you select the CR preference to set default by ISO you get even further along the way by incorporating noise reduction by ISO as well.

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One thing that ACR still lacks is heavy duty noise reduction, and Bibble Pro is ahead in this area, since it incorporates Noise Ninja. The raw converter is the ideal place to do NR, since the ACR adjustments, especially exposure, change the noise profile and this complication is avoided if the converter gets first crack at the noise. Furthermore, one should reduce noise before sharpening, lest the noise undergo sharpening also. If the capture has significant noise, Bruce recommended turning off the ACR NR and using a third party solution. In this case, the ACR sharpening should be disabled also.

Noise Ninja can auto match its profile to the exposure adjustments of ACR, but that entails building profiles for each range of exposure adjustments as well as ISO.

Noise is of less concern to Canon users because of the excellent noise characteristics of their sensors, but not everyone uses Canon.

Bill

[Phuong]

...nor can I comment on how this will effect the product "PhotoKit Sharpener" in the future other than to say we intend to continue developing PKS for version 2.0. I just don't know when it may see light of day...
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Schewe, the new capture sharpening tools in ACR 4.1 is great. but does it mean this function will disapear in PKS (if it will ever be released)?

as far as im concerned, this slider works on an image-to-image basis, therefore it cannot be used for batch processing just like the recovery slider. for those who do panorama stitching, they have no choice but disregard this function and instead, apply capture sharpening after the stitch job. if the capture sharpening step is removed from PKS then panorama stitchers will be screwed?

[thompsonkirk]

Thank you, Jeff, for the article & explanation!  I've sent out the citation to a mailing list, but  I've also urged caution about the new sharpening tools.  

Quoting yours truly: "I'd urge caution, however, about one of the main new features:  ACR now comes with a set of advanced sharpening controls, initially designed by the late Bruce
Fraser & finished up by Jeff Schewe.  BUT it's a questionable idea to do much sharpening on a RAW file. At the RAW/Capture stage of sharpening, you should do just a bit to compensate for the anti-aliasing filter on your digital camera's sensor.

"I believe that by including such complete sharpening tools in ACR, Adobe (& maybe, accidentally, Jeff's article) is tempting people to do too much RAW file sharpening, & maybe not at the best time.  Also by suggesting that you judge sharpness on your monitor, the article might get you involved in oversharpening. The image really shouldn't look very sharp at this stage.  So if you choose to use this new tool, take it easy."

I went on to add that I, for one, plan to keep on using the PKSharpener. A note about a 'post-Beta' version appears on Jeff's Photoshop News website.  

One reason for preferring not to capture sharpen within the RAW conversion process: it makes a difference whether you capture sharpen before or after processes that will redistribute pixels, especially perspective crops, LensFix/distortion correction, & also some aspects of noise reduction.  I'd rather use these tools after RAW conversion and right before capture sharpening (& of course before all the layers work in PS, & finally output sharpening). A good place to look for the advantage of this workflow is in the far corners of files from full-frame sensors, where you can see that capture sharpening after using the pixel-redistributing tools is less 'artifacty.'  This isn't just a loupe-eyed issue - you can see the difference in medium-sized (12x18) prints with the naked eye.  

Kirk

[Schewe]

One reason for preferring not to capture sharpen within the RAW conversion process: it makes a difference whether you capture sharpen before or after processes that will redistribute pixels, especially perspective crops, LensFix/distortion correction, & also some aspects of noise reduction. 
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That may be true in some cases...but one great advantage of CR/LR is that they are parametric editors...which means you don't bake anything in the pixel file except when rendering...as such, you are always free to alter the parameters and re-render-the same can't be said for rendered pixel files where you are forced back upstream. The more we can keep parametric, the better.

BUT it's a questionable idea to do much sharpening on a RAW file. At the RAW/Capture stage of sharpening, you should do just a bit to compensate for the anti-aliasing filter on your digital camera's sensor.

Close...but I would argue that it's not "questionable" to apply some degree of capture sharpening-the "questionable" part is how much to do and how.

In its current form, CR 4.1 sharpening _CAN_ be over done-no question about that. But so can the tone and color adjustments. There's really no way to stop users from "overdoing" anything. Photographers have this nasty habit of "if a little is good, more will be more better" and that simply is not true.

The key is to know how much to do and then do no more...and this applies to sharpening as well as any other raw processing parameter.

The new sharpening controls are, well, new. New and innovative with the ability to "see" what you are doing while adjusting the Detail and Masking effects and generation-imagine, edge masking on the fly...how cool is that?

So then the question is how to harness the power and use it wisely...that will take some time to accomplish and to test. There has been some talk amongst the PG members about working on a set of presets that we would suggest as starting points based on the same criteria Bruce and I used for PK Sharpener. The one issue is that at this time, "presets" are by nature "open" meaning there's no way to lock them or keep them from being changed-one of the advantages of our automate plug-ins (it's not JUST the fact we can use serial number copy protection-there's no way to be sure they haven't been altered).

We may go down that road...once the current CR 4.1 and the upcoming Lightroom 1.x update is out. But, until "something" happens (and I simply can't talk about it yet) in Lightroom at least, there's a break in the action because the current output sharpening isn't there yet. Which pretty much requires that optimal output sharpening still be done on pixels not parameters. But we'll get there if not for ALL images (except the exceptions you've noted) at least for the vast majority of images...and the majority is indeed vast these days. Photographers are shooting the heck out of their digital cameras with no reduction in sight. So, dealing with a real "workflow" including image sharpening (or "detailing" as Bruce used to say) is still a challenge-with parameters or pixels.

[thompsonkirk]

"I would argue that it's not 'questionable' to apply some degree of capture sharpening-the 'questionable' part is how much to do and how." "So then the question is how to harness the power and use it wisely...."

Agree 100%.  And if Presets means a drop-down list like the ones in PK Sharpener for "Digital High Res," "Narrow Edge," etc., then these would do a great job of harnessing all those megawatts of unleashed sharpening energy.

1, they'd give intelligent baselines & mitigate the temptation to over-sharpen by judging from the monitor; &

2, no individual on his/her own is going to come up with a set of options as thorough & useful as the PKS presets have been.    

Kirk