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Author Topic: Advantages of film over digital for magazine print  (Read 20608 times)

David WM

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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2007, 11:09:55 am »

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hi All

Does anyone have recomendations  regarding books, websites etc that will explain how to become an expert in file preperation for 4 colour printing? Also what software tools do  I need for this?

Many thanks
Ivan
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Professional Photoshop5th edition by Dan Margulis has a lot of great info in it.

David
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digitaldog

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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2007, 11:29:34 am »

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Professional Photoshop5th edition by Dan Margulis has a lot of great info in it.

David
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Dan doesn't have a friggin clue about raw processing! I've been on his so called color theory list for years and some of his recent rants are simply totally without merit, he thinks the U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 profile which is based on TR001 always prints magenta to any printer (silly, if the device conforms to TR001, the profile works beautifully). He's all about fixing turds in Photoshop which I would expect are not being generated by the people here who understand proper capture techiques. If you want me to post some of the more ridiculousness posted by Dan here, I've got all kinds of ammo. Buy the book, it has some value. But its not going to teach you anything about CMYK prep from RGB (they guy thinks ProPhoto RGB is a dangerous space), using profiles for getting good conversions etc.
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David WM

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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2007, 11:51:59 am »

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'I do tend to desaturate my images colourful hightlights a bit to minimise the 'gamut warning' though - is this wise ??
SMM
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 I suppose desatuating your files yourself means that you are making the decision as to how to convert the out of gamut colours rather than leaving it up to the prepress operator. A good prepress opertor may do better than you, but the big question is the quality of the hands your file is passing onto. If your files are heading primarily to cmyk then I'd be getting the out of gammut colours into gammut as early as possible in processing rather than leaving it until the moment before conversion. Any other thoughts?
David
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David WM

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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2007, 12:11:46 pm »

I understand that you and Dan seem to have opposing views Andrew. I have read his work and its seems logically and practically based, and has a lot of powerful technique. A lot of it does seem to be how to repair and correct poor images(of course we never make those  ), but he does seem to have a large and respectful following, as you do.   It would be good if you guys could see some middle ground, it aint easy for the students when the teachers are scrapping.

David

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Dan doesn't have a friggin clue about raw processing! I've been on his so called color theory list for years and some of his recent rants are simply totally without merit, he thinks the U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 profile which is based on TR001 always prints magenta to any printer (silly, if the device conforms to TR001, the profile works beautifully). He's all about fixing turds in Photoshop which I would expect are not being generated by the people here who understand proper capture techiques. If you want me to post some of the more ridiculousness posted by Dan here, I've got all kinds of ammo. Buy the book, it has some value. But its not going to teach you anything about CMYK prep from RGB (they guy thinks ProPhoto RGB is a dangerous space), using profiles for getting good conversions etc.
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Rob C

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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2007, 12:13:19 pm »

For what it´s worth, I think this is a part of photography (today) which is serious enough to push photographers out of the business.

Yes, I guess that today´s guys have to learn about all the stuff which was NOT their concern when the job ended with handing the client your selection of the best of the shoot and sending in the invoice. And that´s a hell of a different ballgame. So different, in fact, that I am absolutely certain that there are photographers around who are very good and have had success in the job but who would not have dreamed of getting into the profession had the job not stopped where it used to. I am one such. I am not an idiot; I have had a technical education too and despite all that, gave it all up to follow the dream which was all about working with a camera. I worked in an industrial photo unit and for a commercial photographer before going out on my own; I did a lot of colour printing (C Types) those many years ago as well as a hell of a lot of black and white.

And the thing about it was this: it felt part of the creative, hands-on, seat of the pants  thing which I had wanted to be a part of and even working through the night until the next day to meet a deadline was enjoyable. It all felt as if it were a product of my eyes, mind, hands and soul. Sadly, no such feeling comes to me working with PS. Yes, I can do things which were harder if not impossible in the wet, but somehow, this new power doesn´t feel photographic; it just feels technical and not really a part of me.

So, I feel that to want to be a potographer today, you have to be a rather different mental package to the one that went before. I have a feeling that this shows up in the different styles of photography which are on show in the world out there. Maybe things just look more clinical, more detached...

Ciao - Rob C

digitaldog

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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2007, 12:18:29 pm »

Life was indeed easier when all you had to supply to the client was a chrome anyone could look at and know the image was sound. That's not anywhere as easy when you're suppling a document made up of noting more than a big pile of 1's and Zero's.
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nicholask

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« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2007, 08:37:37 am »

The shame of it is that with the new skill set required there has not been a corresponding pay rise!  Look at the kind of salaries being paid to web managers and developers, and even graphic designers.

Like many of you, I came out of analogue, yet have worked in digital now for ten years.  I have developed a whole set of skills, accordingly.  The lay person, however, thinks perfect digital pictures are magically produced by an infallible machine!

Similarly, in my job as a photographer at a large museum, I was among the lowest paid staff members at the institution - hell, the security guys got paid more.  I discovered that this was because the photography award that I was paid against had not been revised since 1981, and it still hasn't!  This despite my job description that called for B&W print and process, film scanning all formats, 4x5 film photography, studio capture on Sinar digital mfdb, images for powerpoint, photoshop retouching work, annual report and events shooting - all in any given week...

Interestingly, too, when I started out assisting an ad guy in the late 80's, he was getting $2,500 a day as a fee.  I know that there are plenty of shooters out there now struggling to get that day rate...

NBP

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« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2007, 08:20:30 am »

I think you should take the handbags elsewhere, frankly.


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Dan doesn't have a friggin clue about raw processing! I've been on his so called color theory list for years and some of his recent rants are simply totally without merit, he thinks the U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 profile which is based on TR001 always prints magenta to any printer (silly, if the device conforms to TR001, the profile works beautifully). He's all about fixing turds in Photoshop which I would expect are not being generated by the people here who understand proper capture techiques. If you want me to post some of the more ridiculousness posted by Dan here, I've got all kinds of ammo. Buy the book, it has some value. But its not going to teach you anything about CMYK prep from RGB (they guy thinks ProPhoto RGB is a dangerous space), using profiles for getting good conversions etc.
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2007, 02:51:09 am »

RE: Dan Margulis    I've learned more stuff on color and editing in just one of his books than any of the two dozen others that I've read combined.  He's a rebel perhaps but he knows more than most and this threatens the small fish into trashing him out of their own complete insecurity.  His books are also peppered with little jokes and quips that make them quite entertaining to read. He's a genius IMHO.
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paulmoorestudio

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« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2007, 04:31:12 am »

When I shot film, I made sure that I delivered the best transparency I could. I exposed
it and one of the best labs in the country (newlab sf ) processed it, that was it, and it looked beautiful there on a macbeth light table..

With digital, I took over the processing responsibility and like the lab charge for it.
It requires that I caputure,process and proof for the best end result..an image which an equally professional 4/c printer can take and reproduce..I always provide adobe98 files which have been checked and adjusted for cmyk.. I can then be confident that the proof I provide is attainable for the client's future presswork..if the printer does their part to the full capabilities of the medium; converts the file to their cmyk, then it works well and the client and I are happy.
There is still a turf war out there,some printers think prepress is all in their court, an area where they billed their clients accordingly..some are still paying for the sytex machines no doubt, and their press press billings are taking a hit.
Ad and design print production managers get an earful from the printer... and you can bet that the printer sales reps are blaming photographers if any problem arises on the print job.
 I can hear it now.." oh, it was the photographers crappy files they provided, if they would have
shot film.."
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Garfield

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« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2007, 08:44:42 am »

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I always provide adobe98 files which have been checked and adjusted for cmyk..
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Hi, guys first post here...I've been reading a lot recently.
Paul, just curious how do you check and adjust your files for cmyk ?
Is it the "proof colors" & "gamut warning" in photoshop ?
Thanks,
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digitaldog

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« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2007, 09:06:51 am »

First off, I'd be careful about providing files in Adobe RGB to press people who don't understand color management real well! They can hose the conversions. I'd provide the documents in ColorMatch RGB instead. The downside is very slight, a bit smaller color gamut than most SWOP like output devices but the 1.8 gamma and the way it was designed will be better for CMYK output.

Quote
Hi, guys first post here...I've been reading a lot recently.
Paul, just curious how do you check and adjust your files for cmyk ?
Is it the "proof colors" & "gamut warning" in photoshop ?
Thanks,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

With an RGB document or an existing CMYK document? One useful feature in the Proof Setup is the Preserve CMYK numbers check box IF you're viewing an existing CMYK file (you don't have access to the RGB original) and you want to see how it would appear going out to another CMYK device. The check box is telling Photoshop 'show me how this image would appear going to this output device if I do NOT convert'. In other words, I have a CMYK file for device A and I have a profile for device B. How will the numbers appear if I just send them to this device (? If they look awful, then you have to consider reseparating the data. Again, ideally you'd have the RGB data but that's not always possible.

The gamut warnings for viewing RGB (to CMYK) are pretty useless. Rather than viewing an ugly overlay, just pick the output profile and rendering intent and you'l see on screen what the effect of out of gamut colors will be (within the limitations of the display gamut. It should be able to show most colors aside from very saturated cyans you can produce on press).
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digitaldog

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« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2007, 09:10:52 am »

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RE: Dan Margulis    I've learned more stuff on color and editing in just one of his books than any of the two dozen others that I've read combined.  He's a rebel perhaps but he knows more than most and this threatens the small fish into trashing him out of their own complete insecurity.  His books are also peppered with little jokes and quips that make them quite entertaining to read. He's a genius IMHO.
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Who might have said this recently?:

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It does, however, beg the question: if saving time is so important that
quality compromises need to be made, why is the raw format being used at all? With rare image-specific exceptions, essentially anybody who is not a beginner will get better final results by shooting JPEG and correcting in Photoshop than an expert can who shoots raw but is not allowed to do any manipulation outside of the acquisition module. And in less time, too. The idea of a raw module is to *empower* the image-manipulation program, not replace it.

OK, let's start shooting JPEG cause the man said so.

That's just one. I have plenty of others that make most computer savvy photographers fall on floor in laughter.
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Dustbak

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« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2007, 09:43:44 am »

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Who might have said this recently?:
OK, let's start shooting JPEG cause the man said so.

That's just one. I have plenty of others that make most computer savvy photographers fall on floor in laughter.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hmmm..... the bold part is a remark that would have some truth in it when you do not know how to process raw files, when your raw converter doesn't apply the tags the camera gives the raw file which would have given you the same result when shooting in JPG in the first place. Anybody who is not a beginner would know how to process a Raw file to get to the same result as the JPG without loosing a lot of time or putting in a lot of effort.

Only in very specific circumstances that remark would be true.

The last sentence I simply do not understand.

Anyway, digital processing, colorspaces and conversions do give many people a severe headache.

You advise providing Colormatch RGB, a smaller colorspace that looks more like a cmyk color space so there is less to go wrong?

Makes some sense although in many cases I find it very hard to find exactly where something has gone wrong. In many cases it is conversion but not always. The last problem we had was with a printer that had some issues with his yellow for some reason, this was a physical problem so didn't show when converting to their profiles either. It took us the better part of 6 months to get the problem out. Naturally the fingerpointing ended with me but when at least 6 people all with good calibrated screens don't notice a greenish/yellowish cast before it gets printed it probably is not in my files . Most magazines I work for prefer me to deliver 'plain' AdobeRGB and do conversions themselves.

Biggest problem I find is that people, when something goes wrong, aren't really willing to look where the problem is but much rather point outward.

I find I can do things with color and color fidelity that were virtually impossible in the time I used film.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 09:48:41 am by Dustbak »
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digitaldog

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« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2007, 09:57:32 am »

ColorMatch has some advantages due to its gamma encoding for CMYK press work accounting for dot gain. Its also a lot closer to the native behavior of most displays (certainly those on the Mac). If you view a document in a non color managed application that's in Adobe RGB (1998) its going to look pretty ugly, where one in ColorMatch will look reasonable. Also, if the user doesn't have a clue about color management and they convert the data not understanding Adobe RGB as the source for the conversion, they will get poor results compared to a space that's closer to the native assumption of the display system. IF you know the people working with the RGB understand color management, them absolutely send Adobe RGB (1998), even ProPhoto. If not, its a bad idea to send images in these color spaces.
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Henry Goh

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« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2007, 10:39:14 am »

I'm thinking if it would not be better to supply a converted TIFF file tagged with the camera profile if the client wishes to do their own conversion?  Since they know how to convert, they should be able to use as much data that the file is carrying?  Am I wrong to think this way?

Henry
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David WM

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« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2007, 10:51:06 am »

I've seen the use of sRGB being recommended to help guard against file profile mismanagement for files heading to offset presses. Given that sRGB is probably a more common profile in general use, would you see it a a more or less useful profile than Colormatch for this purpose?

 
Quote
ColorMatch has some advantages due to its gamma encoding for CMYK press work accounting for dot gain. Its also a lot closer to the native behavior of most displays (certainly those on the Mac). If you view a document in a non color managed application that's in Adobe RGB (1998) its going to look pretty ugly, where one in ColorMatch will look reasonable. Also, if the user doesn't have a clue about color management and they convert the data not understanding Adobe RGB as the source for the conversion, they will get poor results compared to a space that's closer to the native assumption of the display system. IF you know the people working with the RGB understand color management, them absolutely send Adobe RGB (1998), even ProPhoto. If not, its a bad idea to send images in these color spaces.
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digitaldog

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« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2007, 11:11:52 am »

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I'm thinking if it would not be better to supply a converted TIFF file tagged with the camera profile if the client wishes to do their own conversion?  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121610\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sounds dangerous to me. KISS.
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Henry Goh

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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2007, 11:13:16 am »

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Sounds dangerous to me. KISS.
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Could you kindly explain why it is dangerous Andrew.  Thanks.

Henry
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digitaldog

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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2007, 11:13:40 am »

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I've seen the use of sRGB being recommended to help guard against file profile mismanagement for files heading to offset presses. Given that sRGB is probably a more common profile in general use, would you see it a a more or less useful profile than Colormatch for this purpose?
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Using sRGB is going to be OK too. Its pretty similar to ColorMatch, slightly smaller gamut, different tone response curve (2.2). I'd go either sRGB or ColorMatch long before anything else if I suspected the person on the receiving end had color management incapabilities. ColorMatch would have a slight edge due to the 1.8 gamma encoding (in theory).
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