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Author Topic: Phase Pixel density  (Read 5227 times)

Henry Goh

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Phase Pixel density
« on: May 09, 2007, 06:13:52 pm »

I notice that P20. P21 and P25 have less dense sensors compared to P30 and P45.  Are the files from the P20, 21 and 25 cleaner, less noisy, smoother or is there no difference?

Thanks for any input

Henry
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pss

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2007, 07:26:06 pm »

Quote
I notice that P20. P21 and P25 have less dense sensors compared to P30 and P45.  Are the files from the P20, 21 and 25 cleaner, less noisy, smoother or is there no difference?

Thanks for any input

Henry
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i can say that from my experience with the P20 and the P30, the P30 is cleaner, smoother and less noisy at the same asa setting....actually P30 at 400 is almost as clean as P20 at 200...
read [a href=\"http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=3442]this[/url] from the phase forum...

clean and noisy is different for everybody....
the P45 (+) seems to be the perfect choice for someone shooting mostly at 100 or 200 needing absolute resolution and maybe movements.....the P30 is the much better allrounder with almost the same resolution....and a lot cheaper....
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Graham Mitchell

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2007, 08:08:24 pm »

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the P30 is the much better allrounder with almost the same resolution....and a lot cheaper....

It's not really fair to compare the two without mentioning that the p45 sensor is larger, which means wide angle lenses give a FOV closer to the intended FOV. Sensor size is expensive.

Also, the P30 is not suitable for use with tilt/shift lenses.

I should also add that the photosite pitch doesn't tell you the whole story. The space between the photosites varies, so that two sensors of the same size and resolution can have quite different photosite sizes, i.e. different "fill factor".
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clawery

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2007, 09:48:07 pm »

Also, the P21 and P25 have 9x9 micron pixels.  The P30 and P45 have 6.8x6.8 micron pixels.

Chris Lawery
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Capture Integration
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Henry Goh

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2007, 10:02:13 pm »

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Also, the P21 and P25 have 9x9 micron pixels.  The P30 and P45 have 6.8x6.8 micron pixels.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So Chris,

my question is whether the 9x9 micron pixels give better images than the 6.8x6.8 ones?

Henry
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 10:02:31 pm by Henry Goh »
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Ken Doo

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2007, 11:36:41 pm »

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Also, the P30 is not suitable for use with tilt/shift lenses.


Has anyone here actually shot the P30 with a tilt-shift lens?

I could only find small references from the Phase literature that using tilt-shift with large format cameras may cause a color cast in the image.

What about with MF camera bodies?  How about the Mamiya 645AFD and Hartblei 45mm tilt-shift super rotator with the P30?

clawery

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2007, 07:23:34 am »

I would have to agree with PSS and the quote he had:

"clean and noisy is different for everybody....
the P45 (+) seems to be the perfect choice for someone shooting mostly at 100 or 200 needing absolute resolution and maybe movements.....the P30 is the much better allrounder with almost the same resolution....and a lot cheaper...."

You could ask 10 different photographers which is a better image, and you will get 10 different answers.

Chris Lawery
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Capture Integration
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Henry Goh

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2007, 08:44:07 am »

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I would have to agree with PSS and the quote he had:

"clean and noisy is different for everybody....
the P45 (+) seems to be the perfect choice for someone shooting mostly at 100 or 200 needing absolute resolution and maybe movements.....the P30 is the much better allrounder with almost the same resolution....and a lot cheaper...."

You could ask 10 different photographers which is a better image, and you will get 10 different answers.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116750\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But Chris,

I'm asking if the 9x9 micron chip yielding different results from the 6.8x6.8 micron chip.  P45 and P30 are both using the 6.8x6.8 micron chip are they not?

Henry
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clawery

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2007, 09:04:45 am »

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But Chris,

I'm asking if the 9x9 micron chip yielding different results from the 6.8x6.8 micron chip.  P45 and P30 are both using the 6.8x6.8 micron chip are they not?

Henry
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Henry,

You are correct.  The P45 and P30 do utilize the 6.8x6.8 micron pixels.  Both the P45 and P30 offer amazing files, but you can't discount the other backs that have 9x9 micron pixels.  Take a look at some of our tests on our web site.  You can download some of the files and look for yourself.

[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com/comparison/index.html]http://www.captureintegration.com/comparison/index.html[/url]

Thank you,

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
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Mort54

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2007, 10:23:21 am »

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I'm asking if the 9x9 micron chip yielding different results from the 6.8x6.8 micron chip.  P45 and P30 are both using the 6.8x6.8 micron chip are they not?
The P45 and P30 chips both have 6.8x6.8 micron photosites, but they are not the same chips. The P30 is a 31 MP chip, while the P45 is 39 MP chip. As others have noted, the P45 chip is also bigger, so your wide lenses are wider with a P45 than they are with a P30. Also, the P30 has microlenses to improve sensitivity (lower noise at higher ISOs). The P45 doesn't use microlenses. I've read that microlenses can cause color shifts with movements. I've also heard the microlenses reduce contrast between neighboring photosites and therefore reduce apparent sharpness a bit (I don't have any first hand knowledge of that - the samples I looked at from the two backs both looked pretty impressive, so if there is any difference in micro-contrast, it's pretty subtle).
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pss

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2007, 01:01:54 pm »

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Has anyone here actually shot the P30 with a tilt-shift lens?

I could only find small references from the Phase literature that using tilt-shift with large format cameras may cause a color cast in the image.

What about with MF camera bodies?  How about the Mamiya 645AFD and Hartblei 45mm tilt-shift super rotator with the P30?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i have been playing with the idea of the hartblei, but haven't actually bought/tried one yet.....

the colorshift with phase backs is a strange story...do a search and you will find conflicting reports....some people get the shifts with WA lenses, some don't....some get shifts with the P30 with WA....i don't....i use my P30 with my 35mm mamiya all the time....no shifts.....

when i had the P20, i played with the rollei T/S lens and got 0 shifts will crazy movements....maybe i am blind....maybe every back reacts differently?

within C1 there is the lens correction settings, i have never used it....the fact that there is no common settings (measured for every back, lens, f stop and camera....the same way lens correction software works) tells me that phase really wants you to make sure every time.....

i am waiting for a lensbaby for my mamiya and will do some shots to see how bad the shifts will be....i know i won't shoot a white card and enter the correction....especially since i really don't use C1 anymore....and LR does not have any way of correcting for shifts.....
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BobDavid

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2007, 04:11:19 pm »

The Hartblei 45mm tilt-shift super rotator is a mediocre lens with a fairly limited range of shift. The Mamiya 50mm shift lens is much better, both optically and mechanically. Though the Mamiya does not have the tilt feature, I found the tilt feature on the Hartblei to be fairly clunky.
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pss

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Phase Pixel density
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2007, 08:07:36 pm »

i am following up on my last post....i got the lensbaby 3g for my mamiya 645....and i get 0 shifts of any kind with my P30.....i am not complaining, but how is that possible? the P30 is not supposed to work with S/T.....and the lensbaby is all about movements....crazy uncontrollable movements....

by the way this is a really fun way to shoot, a great toy.....gotta love the mamiya system...645, RZ, viewcameras and now lensbaby.....
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