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RKH

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« on: May 01, 2007, 10:26:18 am »

Hi all,

Although I've searched and read endless topics on this forum I'm new to posting here and hope to be new to Medium Format pretty soon also.

As we all know, no medium format solution can be entered into lightly. After alot of the usual methodology I am nearing a decision and will most likely go the Contax 645 + a Psomething + route and just wanted to clear certain grey areas before making the plunge.

I live in the UK and finding out about, let alone playing with, Sinar equipment is pretty tough.
The Sinar backs (eMotion 22 + eMotion 75) look to be versatile pieces of equipment....on paper. I'm sure they deliver outstanding image quality but I'm wondering just how practical they are in the real world. The most appealing feature of these backs are the ability to attach one single back to a large variety of cameras using adaptor plates. While I'm pretty sure I'd stick to one main MF camera system; it's quite a promising thought not to be boxed in at an early stage. I'm just weighing my options.

My question is this: If I were working with say a Contax 645, and then wanted to switch to another camera - how long would this process take? Am I right in thinking that one must unscrew the adapter plate, remove it and the foil stacks, then replace the foil stacks with a new set for calibrating to the new camera and then reattach the plate to the back and then the back to the new camera? Unless I'm missing something this versatility seems to be compromising ease-of-use....

On the subject of the foil stacks, I presume that once a set of stacks has been set for each camera they can just be switched, right? Although the versatility of this sounds promising I would probably get frustrated with this approach as there are so many extra pieces of equipment one must carry and so many variables....oh yeah, and the price of all of this added equipment.

Ok, I've rambled enough. I'll get to my main point. Hopefully someone from Sinar or any Sinar users can help me out.

The Sinar M. Does anyone here use one as a standalone camera? How is it to use?
I have some questions:

Power: Am I right in thinking that to be fully un-tethered the "Power Bottom" grip must be in use? Or is ther an on-board battery on the body so that an un-tethered solution can be made possible without the grip?

Lenses: The Zeiss/Sinaron AF lenses look great, and are priced like they should wipe the floor with any other MF lens (Contax/Zeiss, Schneider etc.). While I doubt that this is the case in extreme terms, are they really that good that they can justify such prices? Ok, forget price justification; are they /that/ good?

Quality: I'm a build-quality nut (one of the reasons that I like the Contax so much). How does the Sinar M compare?

Sinar Cyber Kit: The Sinar Cyber Kit seems to be an interesting accessory. Erm....does anyone know anything about it? Does that need to be teathered to a computer, or just a DB? Can it be used with the eMotion Backs? What advantages could one hope to gain from using such a device?

I'm aware of some of the areas in which the Sinar M might fall short (Size [is it really that big?], slow flash sync etc.) but because I don't have any experience with Sinar's products I'd simply just love to find out more and get as many facts as possible before making my final decision. If the quality of the Sinar M (both Image and build) is in a league of its own then those short-comings might be worth it?

Thanks to all for reading, this is a fantastic forum and I hope my long-winded post hasn't put too many of you to sleep.

All the best,

Ras
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 10:52:50 am by RKH »
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mattlap2

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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2007, 12:57:48 pm »

Quote
Hi all,

Although I've searched and read endless topics on this forum I'm new to posting here and hope to be new to Medium Format pretty soon also.

As we all know, no medium format solution can be entered into lightly. After alot of the usual methodology I am nearing a decision and will most likely go the Contax 645 + a Psomething + route and just wanted to clear certain grey areas before making the plunge.

I live in the UK and finding out about, let alone playing with, Sinar equipment is pretty tough.
The Sinar backs (eMotion 22 + eMotion 75) look to be versatile pieces of equipment....on paper. I'm sure they deliver outstanding image quality but I'm wondering just how practical they are in the real world. The most appealing feature of these backs are the ability to attach one single back to a large variety of cameras using adaptor plates. While I'm pretty sure I'd stick to one main MF camera system; it's quite a promising thought not to be boxed in at an early stage. I'm just weighing my options.

My question is this: If I were working with say a Contax 645, and then wanted to switch to another camera - how long would this process take? Am I right in thinking that one must unscrew the adapter plate, remove it and the foil stacks, then replace the foil stacks with a new set for calibrating to the new camera and then reattach the plate to the back and then the back to the new camera? Unless I'm missing something this versatility seems to be compromising ease-of-use....

On the subject of the foil stacks, I presume that once a set of stacks has been set for each camera they can just be switched, right? Although the versatility of this sounds promising I would probably get frustrated with this approach as there are so many extra pieces of equipment one must carry and so many variables....oh yeah, and the price of all of this added equipment.

Ok, I've rambled enough. I'll get to my main point. Hopefully someone from Sinar or any Sinar users can help me out.

The Sinar M. Does anyone here use one as a standalone camera? How is it to use?
I have some questions:

Power: Am I right in thinking that to be fully un-tethered the "Power Bottom" grip must be in use? Or is ther an on-board battery on the body so that an un-tethered solution can be made possible without the grip?

Lenses: The Zeiss/Sinaron AF lenses look great, and are priced like they should wipe the floor with any other MF lens (Contax/Zeiss, Schneider etc.). While I doubt that this is the case in extreme terms, are they really that good that they can justify such prices? Ok, forget price justification; are they /that/ good?

Quality: I'm a build-quality nut (one of the reasons that I like the Contax so much). How does the Sinar M compare?

Sinar Cyber Kit: The Sinar Cyber Kit seems to be an interesting accessory. Erm....does anyone know anything about it? Does that need to be teathered to a computer, or just a DB? Can it be used with the eMotion Backs? What advantages could one hope to gain from using such a device?

I'm aware of some of the areas in which the Sinar M might fall short (Size [is it really that big?], slow flash sync etc.) but because I don't have any experience with Sinar's products I'd simply just love to find out more and get as many facts as possible before making my final decision. If the quality of the Sinar M (both Image and build) is in a league of its own then those short-comings might be worth it?

Thanks to all for reading, this is a fantastic forum and I hope my long-winded post hasn't put too many of you to sleep.

All the best,

Ras
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=115179\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ras,

Let me see if I can summarize responses to clear up some of your questions.

The Interface plates for the Emotion backs can be switched rather quickly.   There are 3 screws holding them in place.   It is just a matter of unscrewing the plate, removing the foil stack and then replacing them with the new plate and foil stack combination.    You only have to adjust the foil stacks once.

The Sinar M Camera has been touched on many times on this forum.   It can be used as a stand alone camera with the zeiss lenses.   They are top notch optics and give superb image quality.   The system has many modular qualities and the ability to be used in many different scenarios.   Only you can really decide if it works for you and your needs.   It is built very solidly and I would consider it top notch construction.

The Cyber Kit is actually pretty obsolete.   It was designed to give fiber optic backs portability.   Since Sinar has not made a Fiber Optic back in about 4 years now (a lifetime in digital) ....you wouldn't be able to use it with any other backs than the 22, 23 and 54 Fiber Optic.    

Hope that answers your questions ......

Matt LaPointe
National Sales Support Specialist
Sinar Bron Imaging
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
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RKH

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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2007, 01:12:54 pm »

Thanks Matt, for your quick reply and concise answers to my somewhat long questions. They answered pretty much all of my technical queries.

One thing though in regeards to the battery; is there an on-board battery in the camera body of the Sinar M? Or must one rely on the optional grip for unteathered use?

I'd love to hear thoughts of anyone that has experience using this solution on a regular basis for untethered use.

Thanks!

Ras



Quote
Ras,

Let me see if I can summarize responses to clear up some of your questions.

The Interface plates for the Emotion backs can be switched rather quickly.   There are 3 screws holding them in place.   It is just a matter of unscrewing the plate, removing the foil stack and then replacing them with the new plate and foil stack combination.    You only have to adjust the foil stacks once.

The Sinar M Camera has been touched on many times on this forum.   It can be used as a stand alone camera with the zeiss lenses.   They are top notch optics and give superb image quality.   The system has many modular qualities and the ability to be used in many different scenarios.   Only you can really decide if it works for you and your needs.   It is built very solidly and I would consider it top notch construction.

The Cyber Kit is actually pretty obsolete.   It was designed to give fiber optic backs portability.   Since Sinar has not made a Fiber Optic back in about 4 years now (a lifetime in digital) ....you wouldn't be able to use it with any other backs than the 22, 23 and 54 Fiber Optic.   

Hope that answers your questions ......

Matt LaPointe
National Sales Support Specialist
Sinar Bron Imaging
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=115193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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mattlap2

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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2007, 01:31:06 pm »

Quote
Thanks Matt, for your quick reply and concise answers to my somewhat long questions. They answered pretty much all of my technical queries.

One thing though in regeards to the battery; is there an on-board battery in the camera body of the Sinar M? Or must one rely on the optional grip for unteathered use?

I'd love to hear thoughts of anyone that has experience using this solution on a regular basis for untethered use.

Thanks!

Ras
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=115198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You do need the battery grip for untethered use.   There is no onboard power supply.

Matt
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2007, 02:14:16 pm »

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The Sinar backs (eMotion 22 + eMotion 75) look to be versatile pieces of equipment....
Ras
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=115179\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have had an emotion22 for a while now.

I reckon the colours stright off a P30 are simpler to deal with - but then I use the old eyelike software and my back is number 139

That back has been around for a while now

Getting good colour from an eye has never been easy for me

BUT the software can basically do anything - so once you have saved a 'parameter' that works you can easily stick it onto all of your images

Its just a B*tch to set up

My opinion of the changeable plates is this..

The screws are tiny and really close to the sensor - dont even think about changing in the field

Maybe you could change sometimes - like a day fashion followed by a day of architecture

The strength of the plate system is that you dont get boxed in to a system in the long term

You can change systems if you want to

Take me for example with my H1 - basically a nice system but no T/S no 28 and pretty crap AF (no zones)

Now if a manufacturer with a brain brings out a camera that has decent AF and a T/S lense AND decent flash synch I would be sorely tempted to change

With my eye that is possible

Trouble is all camera systems seems flawed at the mo - either by crap flash synch or lack of lenses or a dull as ditchwater view finder

In a way the most appealing system is mamiya with the 645 for decent lense choice and the RZ for decent flash synch

I wouldnt go for the M on principal because of the stupid cost and dumbass flash synch - it may be tough but not as tough as 3 H1s or 6 contaxes

Very happy for anyone passing cornwall to have a play

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

thsinar

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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2007, 08:36:50 pm »

Ras,

some important precisions to Matt's answers, about eMotion backs and the Sinar m:

1. eMotion Backs

a. Foil stack

Since more than 6 months the foil stack with the adjustment to the focal plane of the camera is NOT LONGER necessary. These foil stack has been replaced by "SPACER" plates, (except for the Rollei 6008 which still needs the foil stack).

These high-precision Spacer Plates – manufactured with a tolerance of just ±0.01 mm – are available in two different thickness: 1.35 mm (# 552.36.550) that is used for the Hasselblad V cameras and 1.45 mm (# 552.36.552) that is used for all other cameras.

Each adapter kit INCLUDES the necessary spacer plate (no additional cost).

This solution makes it an easy, fast and precise way to change the adapters in order to use the backs on another camera: as I had explained it here already, the change from one adapter to another takes 1 minute at the very maximum. And for doing it many times on location without having broken, scratched or damaged anything on the IR filter of the CCD, I can assure you that it is pretty safe and easy, unless you are completely "useless" holding a screwdriver. Other users can confirm this.

b. eMotion workflow

There are basically 3 options here:

- using Sinar Captureshop
- using Eyelike Capturepro
- using Stephan Hess' "Brumbaer" tools ("eMotion DNG converter")

The Brumbaer tools are IMO the fastest and easiest workflow one can find in the market with a MF digital back: raw data can be converted as fast as 3 to 5 seconds into a DNG file. The quality is superb, with "Automatic Centerfold Correction", with "Automatic White Shading" and with "Automatic Highlight Recovery", among other features. I can only suggest you to contact memeber "rehnniar" on this forum who can explain you in details this workflow and its advantages.

2. Sinar m

The camera can be powered with a "Power Grip" mounted on the bottom of the camera, and giving you an autonomy of 10 hours / 5'000 releases.

For those not needing such a powerful battery, a small battery is in preparation and should be released very soon. This battery is much smaller and lighter and can be fixed on the side of the camera (shape of a handgrip).

Another solution is to power the Sinar m with any external 12 V battery (or 12 V power supply)connected via cable to the 12 V socket available on the camera.

The camera is not that "huge" and heavy like often mentioned: I would suggest you to compare it side-by-side with a Hasselblad H system using the same type of lens on it, e.g. the 80mm or the 180mm lenses. I am sure that you will be surprised.

The Sinaron Zeiss AF lenses are top quality lenses, but also here, I can only suggest to test it out or get the feedback from users like "rehnniar" who have compared it with other systems/lenses.

3. Cyber Kit

The system was completely independant: it did not need to be connected to a computer.

The cyber kit is discontinued since 2 years now.

I hope this answers some questions.

Feel free to ask me more.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thanks Matt, for your quick reply and concise answers to my somewhat long questions. They answered pretty much all of my technical queries.

One thing though in regeards to the battery; is there an on-board battery in the camera body of the Sinar M? Or must one rely on the optional grip for unteathered use?

I'd love to hear thoughts of anyone that has experience using this solution on a regular basis for untethered use.

Thanks!

Ras
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=115198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 08:17:44 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2007, 01:43:21 am »

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Since more than 6 months the foil stack with the adjustment to the focal plane of the camera is NOT LONGER necessary. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=115261\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I dont understand this concept of the foil stack being no longer neccesary !

When I had a mamiya I couldnt get correct focus with my Pro Back even though the Pro Back was fine

The body went back to mamiya and was described by them as 'in tolerance'

I thought the purpose of the stack was to 'tune' the back to match an individual camera body

The concept being that different bodies - even of the same make and model - would have a different focal plane - due to manufacturing tolerances (of the cameras) not meeting the extreme accuracy demanded by high resolution digital capture

(it is interesting that the new canon acknowledges this variation in cameras and lenses in their 1DS3 or what ever its called by allowing tuning of AF to each individual lense)

Is this abandonment wise - I have always thought the tune ability of the Eylike to be another major (but little understood) advantage of eyelike backs

MY 'tuned' eye/hassy combo is the only digital camera I have actually been convinced is sharp

SMM
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 01:45:59 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2007, 01:48:40 am »

Dear Sam,

you are basically right! However, the improvements made in the alignement of the CCD precision does not make the foils stack anymore necessary. The condition of perfect alignement in the focal plane is that one works on a perfect and new body. With time, these bodies mechanically worn out and the alignement might not longer be in place: you can then still make use of different plates to re-align the sensor.

So this advantage is not lost at all, just has been simplified (and its price reduced!).

Hope this answers.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I dont understand this concept of the foil stack being no longer neccesary !

When I had a mamiya I couldnt get correct focus with my Pro Back even though the Pro Back was fine

The body went back to mamiya and was described by them as 'in tolerance'

I thought the purpose of the stack was to 'tune' the back to match an individual camera body

The concept being that different bodies - even of the same make and model - would have a different focal plane - due to manufacturing tolerances (of the cameras) not meeting the extreme accuracy demanded by high resolution digital capture

(it is interesting that the new canon acknowledges this variation in cameras and lenses in their 1DS3 or what ever its called by allowing tuning of AF to each individual lense)

Is this abandonment wise - I have always thought the tune ability of the Eylike to be another major (but little understood) advantage

SMM
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Thierry Hagenauer
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