Compact tilt + shift camera..?

[marcwilson]

Hello,

I am starting a new project that requires very selective focussing that can be gained from using both tilt and shift at the same time on the lens.
No need for slr focussing or other mod cons like bulit in metering, etc.

I will be starting with film but, depending, on how things go may end up using a db also (one of the older 16mp non cf cards backs using an image bank, etc.)

I currently use an ebony sw45 and could continue to use this with a 67 roll film back but am really looking for something more compact.

There is the 23 version of the above ebony..the same camera but a bit more compact.

The hasselblad flexbody which could be ideal but I think it only has tilt in one plane, either horizontal or vertical if I rotate the camera, but not both at the same time.

A tiltshift lens like a hartblei on an mf camera (older mamiya, etc)

Any other possibilities people can think of?

It needs to be light so if an mf slr then a 500 series haselblad would be ideal but there are no tiltshift lenses for it...I think?

Also image quality wise although I have in the past regularly printed up to 1 meter wide / square from hasselblad bodies / lenses I'm not sure about the image quality at that size from hartblei lenses, etc.

I believe that although large format lenses are of lower resolution to mf counterparts the larger size of film (67) will compensate for that if the ebony is the route to stick with / go.

As this is not critical architectural work but selective focus landscape etc images are there any reasons a db would not work with these type of camera.

And finally..although I know that the older leaf valeo and imacon baks can work with an image bank or similar, so not tethered to a laptop, is it the same for the older phase one H20?


Thanks for all the help!

Marc

[mtomalty]

Marc

To my mind,the camera system you need,based on your post, is the Hasselblad ArcBody.

It has been discontinued for some years now but still comes up regularly on eBay.

Ther ArcBody has 3 dedicated Rodenstock large format lenses available-35,45,and 75mm.
Tilt and shift can both be had,simultaneously,on the same axis but be forewarned that
the amount of shift is fairly modest when coming from a LF background,as you have
indicated.
Shift also only goes in one direction so if you need 'fall' then the camera has to be mounted
upside down.

Lenses are extremely sharp and system use is very quick,once you familiarize yourself
with the camera.

Currently,there is one total kit on ebay,including all three lenses,camera,accessories and
a Flexbody and accessories to boot.
Priced at over $10K it seems expensive,at quick glance but considering what the
pieces go for individually it is not that bad. The 35mm,in particular,almost never shows
up on the used market anymore so to find one,if you think something this wide falls
within your projects needs,is fortunate albeit not 'free'.

I've had my ArcBody for many years now,and despite not having used it apart from
running assorted DB tests with it for a couple of years,can't seem to part with it

Good luck,
Mark

[RicAgu]

Hey Marc,

PhaseOne just came out with a new digital rig with a mini Arca Swiss M body and the option of three of four lenses.  You can pair it with either a P25 or P45, but you could also use 6x9 roll film backs.

It is not cheap but it seems to do everything you want.  If budget is of concern you could get just the body and one lens to start with roll film from Arca Swiss.  As you grow you could get the different lenses and the digital back of choice.

I was a Sinar P2 guy and then I discovered the Arca Monolith and prefer it.  I know Michael here has some customized Linhoff 6x9 for Digital.  I have not used digital with large format bodies yet, so I cannot advise on that.  I also looked at Alpa bodies at alpa.ch and they seemed like a good option, but again with all accs you are in the $7k to $10k range.  I got my 4x5 Arca M on eBay for a great price and when I am ready to go digital on LF I just have to buy the 6x9 front and rear frames.

Best of luck!

RA

[montero4]

What about a zoerk pro shift + multi focus system? I used to have one on my Contax 645 and I miss it. It was so simple. check it out at zoerk.com.

Another idea would be a modified Hasselblad flexbody. The flexbody only does back tilt and back rise/fall. There is a Australian shop that modifies it to have front swing and front shift (I think) (search for "bendy blad" in google). I looked into it a couple of months ago as I've been looking at a compact tilt/shift solution as well.

Jonah

[marcwilson]

Ric,
Do you have any links to this new phase one set up?

Mark,
Yes i'm looking at the arcbody also now..forgot to mention it in first post..are the lenses basically the original large format ones but in special mounts?

Jonah,
the zoerk option seems quite clumsy to me withand not using the blad hasselblad lenses on 66 film then I'm better off with the larger format roll film backs for those lenses..I may well drop an email to the guy in Australia.seems like the ideal set up..but at what cost??

Thank for the help so far guys.

Marc

[Jack Varney]

Marc,

I think you will find the Phase/Arca info here-

http://www.phaseone.com/upload/arca-swiss_...lutions_001.pdf

[BJNY]

How about Arca's R-series camera?  I heard it was shipping soon.

[montero4]

I may well drop an email to the guy in Australia.seems like the ideal set up..but at what cost??

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114582\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This past January when I was looking into it, the quote was $1900 Australian plus tax, postage and insurance.  Tax only applies to Australian residents. The price may be higher now. They would need your flexbody for approximately 3 weeks. I'm still considering this... have to buy a flexbody first though.

Jonah

[mtomalty]

Yes i'm looking at the arcbody also now..forgot to mention it in first post..are the lenses basically the original large format ones but in special mounts?

Yes.  The 35 and 45 are Apo-Grandagons (non digital) and the 75 in a Grandagon-N
All are mounted in helicoid mounts and is the reason that these relatively cheap lenses
become stupidly expensive.

I've found no noticeable image quality compromise using these non digital lenses (I've
never used the 35mm) on both the P25 and P45.

I've only used them in outdoor,landscape type applications so,perhaps,they may come
up short for digital back use in some other application

Mark

[RicAgu]

Jack beat me to it.

That is the system.  Pretty compact!  I am using a 4x5 with a 12" rail.  They make a 8" rail that extends to about 15".  The only other system I would think that would work for you would be the ALPA.  

R

[marcwilson]

The alpa won't work as what is most important for this system is the abilty for me to use selective focus along two planes so I need both tilt and swing.

So currently my ebony does what I need but is a bit big...using lf lenses and 67 film.

Perhaps the smaller 23 version is what I need..not the most compact but very versatile.

The flexbody could work but only if modified..but uses the top notch V series lenses.

The arcbody would work but how does image quality hold up using lf lenses and film of approx 645 size?

The arca R series..could be right but waiting for a system to appear can often be a very long wait!

There are some silvestri options also but they seem a bit of a cobble together system.

I am pretty sure all will take a db if and when that is possible.

talking of possible db use in the near future...does anyone know if the phase H20 style back can use an image bank or similar so no need to be tethered to a laptop?

Pricing wise I can pick up an H20 for about £3000
How does that compare to similar valeo / imacon non cf card, no screen backs?

Marc

[Kumar]

Marc,

PhaseOne used to sell a "Portable Solution" for the H series backs. This was basically a Sony Vaio U series computer tethered with a firewire cable. Sinar also used to sell something similar, except that the computer was a dedicated device that allowed basic processing to be done. The Image Bank solution isn't available for either of these backs, AFAIK.  

For a compact tilt solution for film only, if you can live with rear movements (only) that are a bit of a hassle to get right, you might want to look at a Mamiya Universal. It can take film upto 6x9 in the Universal backs, or 6x7/6x8 Mamiya RB backs via an adapter. Here in Japan, I still see these being used.

Cheers,
Kumar

[RicAgu]

Marc,

I am not sure about the Phase tethering solution.  But I have a few friends that are very happy with their older Imacon backs in full frame 22 and the square 18mp that shoot to the image bank.  you can get these older Imacon backs with tanks for a song.  Imacon is a wonderful company to deal with out in Washington as far as service and repairs.  There are a couple of the older Imacon digibacks on eBay at the moment.  From the square 16 and 18 mp to the full frame 22.  All of the Imacon's have screens on the back of them.  Although I would only ever use them for histogram view.  As it is dismal at best for anything else.

Best of luck with your selection.  

Let us know what you end up with in a Tilt/Shift camera.

[Morgan_Moore]

Hello,

I am starting a new project that requires very selective focussing [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Silvestri might be worth checking out - if you can ever get a response from thier dealer

S

[mtomalty]

The arcbody would work but how does image quality hold up using lf lenses and film of approx 645 size?

Marc

I don't think you'd be able to find much fault with the quality of the lens/film from the
Arcbody providing you had quality scans.

I've scanned a number of Arcbody images (shot with Velvia 50) on my Imacon 848 and
printed up to 24 x 30 with excellent results.
That's my opinion but,perhaps,you're expectations may differ.

I also still shoot a lot of 4x5 and,while better,the results from the Arc were not significantly
inferior at this size and printed on Hahnemule matte papers.

I suggested the ArcBody more for its extreme compactness but,if you are considering
other,larger 'compact' cameras then I would  be more inclined to suggest you look
at the Arca-Swiss  6x9 cameras. The M 'monolith' is beautiful but is quite a tank if
you're weighing portability into the equation.
Look,rather,at the FC 6x9 or FC-M (metric) 6x9.
This camera  should easily fit the needs of your upcoming project if you can go with
something a little less compact than the ArcBody.

Mark

[marcwilson]

so looking at the arc body..am i correct in thinking you can tilt in just one axis?..so also swing if the camera is turned on it's side..but it does not seem to allow both swing and tilt at the same time which I need for my selective focus...if this is the case then tis is ruled out in the same way as the flexbody (without reconstruction) is.

[ixpressraf]

so looking at the arc body..am i correct in thinking you can tilt in just one axis?..so also swing if the camera is turned on it's side..but it does not seem to allow both swing and tilt at the same time which I need for my selective focus...if this is the case then tis is ruled out in the same way as the flexbody (without reconstruction) is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114779\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you are using a contax or mamiya 645 camera you could consider the hartblei super rotater.
Very nice lens when stopped down a bit.
succes, raf

[marcwilson]

If you are using a contax or mamiya 645 camera you could consider the hartblei super rotater.
Very nice lens when stopped down a bit.
succes, raf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114781\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yes I've had a look at that option..there is with this the option of mamiya, contax (or even the kiev hasselblad style bodies I think) for these lenses but two things worry me about this setup..only the two lens choices..45mm and 65mm and the quality that these lenses + 645 film combo will give me.

with the type of selective focus I am to be using I am going to be using the lenses wide open so unfortunately I won't be able to use the sweet spot aperture of any lenses..a problem of course with large format lenses that all work best at F16 tc but in this matter I have no choice...the style technician (me) demands it!

the more I look into this the more appealing the slightly smaller version of my current ebony sw45 (the sw23) becomes...fairly small, very light, wide lens choice from 47 to 135mm (most of which I have already..just a 47mm would be needed), full range of swing and tilt movements for my selective focus, option of 69 as well as 67 format backs(and db if possible)...mmm...this may well be the simplest and possibly best overall answer.

[mtomalty]

Marc

If you need Tilt and Swing,simultaneously,then the ArcBody is out.

With it,you can only get rise/fall and tilt at the same time.

It seems,from your last post,that you've arrived at the most logical solution.
Go with what you know.

Mark

[DavidP]

You might look at the Kapture Group Tru Wide Camera. If you used the Nikkor 85mm tilt shift you could get a nice selective focus going. It will cover the 4x4cm  H-20 sensor fine. If you are doing a lot of lens movement you may need to use the lens cast correction in Capture One, but it works pretty well. You would also be able to use some other fast nikkor lenses f1.4 or f2 to get a nice effect. I used to have one with an H-20 and it worked very well with the 50 f1.4 wide open. It crops a little on the corners with the 4x5cm chips like the P-25.