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Author Topic: HDR or Gradated ND Filters  (Read 6768 times)

Lust4Life

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« on: April 25, 2007, 10:57:36 am »

I'm currently pondering the question of any future need for my Lee system and Lee ND gradated filters.

With the HDR in CS3 feature, shoot one for the foreground/shadows and another for the sky/highlights, merge with HDR and your done.  

No resin filters to possibly degrade the Hasselblad CFI lenses, no carrying and messing with the Lee holder, adapters, filters, hood.  

Think I'm missing something here in my logic?

Jack

AndrewDyer

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2007, 11:05:50 am »

Quote
I'm currently pondering the question of any future need for my Lee system and Lee ND gradated filters.

With the HDR in CS3 feature, shoot one for the foreground/shadows and another for the sky/highlights, merge with HDR and your done. 

No resin filters to possibly degrade the Hasselblad CFI lenses, no carrying and messing with the Lee holder, adapters, filters, hood. 

Think I'm missing something here in my logic?

Jack
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, your logic is fine as long what you are shooting is static and you have a tripod with you.
If you are in a situation where you can only take one shot (without a ND Grad) you can process the single RAW file a couple of stops darker and combine it in CS3 or in another HDR program.
If this does not give you enough latitude, an ND grad will still be needed. Only some testing will tell you if you can see the difference.
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MarkKay

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2007, 12:15:53 pm »

I agree with the premise but f I am keeping my filters.  Even if you are taking water landscapes or in an environment with blowing leaves on trees,  the ability to merge two images are less desirable.  I have tried this a couple of times where even on a tripod, just under modest wind conditions, the merge does not give a good result.   What has worked for me in times where i did not have my filters and did not do two images with different exposures----  is to process the raw images to bring out the shadows and a second process to bring out the highlights and then photo merge in layers.  Of course if the highlights are really blown or the shadows are really underexposed this will not work.

Quote
No, your logic is fine as long what you are shooting is static and you have a tripod with you.
If you are in a situation where you can only take one shot (without a ND Grad) you can process the single RAW file a couple of stops darker and combine it in CS3 or in another HDR program.
If this does not give you enough latitude, an ND grad will still be needed. Only some testing will tell you if you can see the difference.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114186\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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roskav

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2007, 12:23:08 pm »

I find that if I go to the trouble of taking shots at different exposures that I only use one image when I'm back on the computer .. to save time, or just realising that that blown out window etc actually has someting going for it.

I find the use of filters on location invaluable in that .. that's what you're taking away with you from site.. a shot with a darker sky .. one side of a room being taken down a notch ... or to emeliorate the effects of an extreme wide angle shift.  You can forget what you wanted too easily in the intervening time ... I use them a lot as a result.

Ros
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Jeff-Grant

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 06:26:41 pm »

Quote
I'm currently pondering the question of any future need for my Lee system and Lee ND gradated filters.

With the HDR in CS3 feature, shoot one for the foreground/shadows and another for the sky/highlights, merge with HDR and your done. 

No resin filters to possibly degrade the Hasselblad CFI lenses, no carrying and messing with the Lee holder, adapters, filters, hood. 

Think I'm missing something here in my logic?

Jack
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think that you would be limiting your options by getting rid of the Lee system. As pointed out previously, there are plenty of times when taking two shots doesn't give a workable result.

On a recent trip to New Zealand, I was shooting during the day and found that a 2 stop soft was perfect for balancing out a hot sky. The Lee filter is so soft on the edges that placement was never an issue. Taking two shots and then blending them would be a massive pain when dealing with 3 weeks worth of work.

Jeff
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 06:27:03 pm by Jeff-Grant »
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bcroslin

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2007, 10:37:37 pm »

Dumb question for you guys using the Lee system: do I need the 3"x3" filter holder or the 4"x4" for my Mamiya 645 and Canon system? What system do you use? Does it matter?
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Jeff-Grant

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2007, 11:54:09 pm »

Quote
Dumb question for you guys using the Lee system: do I need the 3"x3" filter holder or the 4"x4" for my Mamiya 645 and Canon system? What system do you use? Does it matter?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114287\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mine are 4"x4". I don't know whether Lee makes any other size. 3" doesn't make a lot of sense when you have almost 4" filter sizes on lenses.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 12:34:16 am by Jeff-Grant »
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bcroslin

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2007, 11:04:58 am »

Is this what you guys are using?

http://tinyurl.com/296g47
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markhout

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2007, 02:32:17 pm »

I thought that applying grad filters and shooting HDR were two rather different beasts. I do both.

Grad filters for 70% of my landscapes if the dynamic range of my DSLR doesn't cover foreground and a partially cloudy sky the way I want.

I'm shooting 5-9 or so bracketed images (without grad) for HDR processing if I want the entire image (i.e. not only the sky) to have a higher dynamic range and/or if I think I might do creative trickery on the image.

I agree that one shouldn't throw away ND grads just because of the additional opportunities digital provides.

Mark
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ngophotographer

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2007, 05:28:47 pm »

Hi Lust4Life:

The Lee system is very good, I use it for landscape photography in digital and 4x5 film.

I come from the school (read: "my style") that you should get the shot as perfect as possible before pulling it into the digital darkroom.  I like the additional latitude on digital, but I still treat it like film.  You only get one chance-- or maybe two  

As for using HDR, I haven't used it, but one of the guys I shoot with who has a P-series back has had problems with it.  "Pin registration" in some images is not perfect like one would have hoped.  He has found the layered images 1-2 pixels off.  FYI, he is shooting with a Dutch Hill CF tripod and A-S B1G head, mirror lock-up, etc.

This one to two pixel shift may be due to the fact that the actual focal length of the lens changes with F-stops.  I am not sure if he tried ONLY changing the shutter speed.  It is possible that changing the shutter speed may introduce a different type of shift (due to how some shutters open and close based on the speed).  For now, I wouldn't rely on it.

A little shift in gears...

Whether you use filters or HDR should be a decision you make when visualizing the image.  I've always been pretty picky about when to trip the shutter.  So...I try not to think about "fixing it later" in photoshop.  There are cases where I have taken insurance shots because I wasn't sure whether I would ever make it back to a location or not.  In those cases, if the exposure held, great, if not...a little/lot of photoshop.  

Don't get rid of your Lee system.  It is a valuable tool in your bag.     HDR is good tool for the darkroom.  

Good luck on getting some great images.

Best regards,

Rich
NGOphotographer
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Jeff-Grant

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2007, 05:35:10 pm »

Quote
Is this what you guys are using?

http://tinyurl.com/296g47
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is the stuff: [a href=\"http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/lee.htm]http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/lee.htm[/url]
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DiaAzul

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2007, 06:12:46 pm »

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This one to two pixel shift may be due to the fact that the actual focal length of the lens changes with F-stops.  I am not sure if he tried ONLY changing the shutter speed.  It is possible that changing the shutter speed may introduce a different type of shift (due to how some shutters open and close based on the speed).  For now, I wouldn't rely on it.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

For a stacked exposure (HDR blending) it is important to keep the aperture constant and only vary the shutter speed. Otherwise, as you have pointed out, changes in depth of field and other related aberations make blending the images very difficult.
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Jonathan Wienke

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2007, 10:30:16 am »

Here's my 2 cents worth:

ND grads have the advantage of only needing a single exposure, but are useless where the border between the bright and dark areas of the composition does not follow a straight line, like any landscape involving mountains, buildings, or trees. Such compositions will have elements that appear unnaturally dark or light because they are on the wrong side of the grad border, which tends to defeat the purpose of the grad in the first place.

HDR has issues when there are moving elements in the composition along the border between the bright and dark areas of the composition, but movement that does not cross the border is not a problem. Because of this, HDR is useful in many more situations than one might otherwise think possible.

When using HDR blending, it is important to use a sturdy tripod, mirror lockup, IS, etc., and vary only the shutter speed between exposures. Focus must not change between exposures, either. Changing aperture or focus settings will cause all kinds of problems when trying to register the images. Even with the best technique, it is still common for images to be misaligned by a pixel or two. Good HDR blending software will allow manual alignment of the images, or do a good job of automatically correcting small registration errors.

I blend manually in Photoshop, and upsize in ACR so that I can correct alignment errors with sub-pixel precision (relative to the original pixel dimensions of the image, that is). After getting the blend I want, I flatten the layers, resize back to the original pixel dimensions, and crop as necessary to clean up the edges. I have yet to encounter a real-world landscape situation that HDR can't handle. I've never bothered buying ND grads and probablyu never will.

BTW, changing aperture does not affect focal length, but changing focus does.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 10:33:46 am by Jonathan Wienke »
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Jack Varney

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HDR or Gradated ND Filters
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2007, 02:40:47 pm »

Jonathan, could you please elaborate on "upsize in ACR"?  By ACR do you mean Adobe Camera Raw?
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Jack Varney

Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2007, 08:42:19 am »

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Jonathan, could you please elaborate on "upsize in ACR"?  By ACR do you mean Adobe Camera Raw?

Yes, I mean Adobe Camera Raw. You can adjust the converted output size to be larger or smaller than the native resolution of the sensor. For example, the Canon 1Ds has a sensor resolution of 4064x2704 pixels, but ACR can output a converted RAW as large as 6144x4088 pixels. Photoshop only allows whole-pixel positional adjustments when moving layers around, so if you upsize first, align, and then downsize back to original resolution, you effectively work around this limitation and allow layer alignment in smaller-than-1-native-pixel increments.

This approach is also useful when blending multi-frame stitched panoramas. The only drawbacks are greater file size, memory requirements, and processing times.
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