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Author Topic: MAJOR APTUS PROBLEMS  (Read 21180 times)

JTFOTO

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MAJOR APTUS PROBLEMS
« on: April 17, 2007, 10:40:25 am »

COPIED OVER FROM THE LEAF FORUM.  THIS IS SCARY!

A friend of mine sent me this last night(reprinted with permission)

"There were 10 of my clients there from the ad agency and 3 of their clients.

Four assistants, two producers, four traffic cops, hair and makeup and stylists and their assistants. A driver, a rep for the car, and I´m sure more people who I´ve forgotten Oscars style.

An iMac 24 and laptop in a blackout tent. Four large generators, a dozen or more lights. A RV. A grip truck. Catering.

Oh, and one Aptus 22 on an H2.

I´ve been getting these can´t connect messages with LC10 lately. Sometimes it takes me a few tries to connect, sometimes a good 20 minutes, but when it´s connected it´s bulletproof.

Today, on exactly the third frame with light falling in the backgroud, LC10 craps out. We try to connect several times with a couple restarts with no luck. We move to LC8 on the iMac. No. We move to LC10 on the laptop. No. We move to LC8 on the laptop. No. We had made it through 50 test shots, but now things are screwed. I let the client know. Hey, it happens. I said that´s the price of these excellent files. I think they were buying it.

Finally, I move to cards and the shows back on the road. So this story has an optomistic ending, right?

Let it be said, I have absolutely no faith in my camera, and that´s not a good feeling. "

Hope you are listening Leaf. 6 of my acquantinces have turned there Leaf backs in or sold them. People are leaving in droves. Please print out the last sentence and place it over ever Leaf employees desk. What you don´t get here is that our careers are at stake every time we shoot. The shoot is hard enough, but every day I show up saying under my breath, "I hope it works, I hope it works"
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yaya

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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2007, 03:17:44 pm »

JT, (I assume this would be your nickname as you are not disclosing your real name)...

No offence, but is there a point in posting this other than bad mouthing a product on a public forum?

I have been personally involved with the quoted customer since he has reported this “incident” and we are making sure that the case is analyzed (computers/ software/ cables/ back/ camera) so the customer, his dealer and Leaf are all aware of the situation and doing the necessary to find a remedy. I am currently waiting for his feedback on a specific test that I've asked him to run.

We all have “scary” stories as much we also all have success stories. On a big, stressful production set many things can go wrong and of course nobody wishes for the camera to go down.

The nature of public forums is that you will rarely hear about these successful shoots...if nothing goes wrong then there's normally nothing to "write home about":-)

So unless your motivation and opinion are clear and backed up by the complete set of facts, I would advise you to avoid posting such quotes in the future.

Best regards,

Yair
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wolfnowl

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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2007, 03:31:32 pm »

Quote
The nature of public forums is that you will rarely hear about these successful shoots...if nothing goes wrong then there's normally nothing to "write home about":-)

Yes... there's an old saying, 'When I do something right, nobody notices.  When I do something wrong, everybody notices.'  Off topic, but my mother once called the head office of an appliance company because the person who had come to fix her stove was on time, polite, courteous, helpful, knowledgeable; in short, everything one could wish for.  So my mom called to say, 'Thanks'.  There was dead silence on the other end of the phone for about ten seconds.  The woman had NEVER received a call like that before.

Mike.
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Fritzer

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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2007, 04:11:01 pm »

I've had cameras fail due to pretty much every reason known to man, I've witnessed shoots go south cause noone thought of bringing a spare sync cable; I've seen 3 of my assistants scratching their heads when a slave cell didn't work in bright sunlight ( ... ).

I don't mean to brag, but in all these cases, I never failed to come up with a solution in a matter of minutes, or just used a back-up.
Sounds like the photographer in that story should not have been assigned in the first place, or have chosen his team more carefully.
As there is no detailed information, it is impossible to tell what caused the problem, or prevented a solution.
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godtfred

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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2007, 04:18:23 pm »

Quote
No offence, but is there a point in posting this other than bad mouthing a product on a public forum?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Public interest and sharing of information is a valid argument, but then I would expect posters with problems who experience good customer care and reparations/replacements to post that "all is well" in the end of the day (this is not always the case, but thats another story.)

Quote
The nature of public forums is that you will rarely hear about these successful shoots...if nothing goes wrong then there's normally nothing to "write home about":-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree to some extent. You will find a lot of posts giving praise to products, customer service, company goodwill towards customers, etc. But IMO it seems the balance is towards criticism in many cases. This however does not mean one should not post facts about incidents with products (or customer care/warranty issues) to enlighten interested parties (forum members.) The number of incidents gives the other forum members an indication of product quality. I don't know about Leaf product quality, and this is not a remark on Leaf products.

Quote
So unless your motivation and opinion are clear and backed up by the complete set of facts, I would advise you to avoid posting such quotes in the future.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A complete set of facts/opinions/statements would be provided if the company or dealer joined in on the forum (like you do) and gave the other side of the story. It is however IMO the right of anyone experiencing something, to share this information as they felt the experience, as long as it is truthful. Dealers and companies can never follow up on all information shared in any community (either real or on the web) and its a difficult task to search such information out. Dealers and companies can however avoid as much of this as they can by improving their product, customer relations, warranties, and other actions. This is as it has always been, and the way I think its going to be in the forseeable future.

To write on a forum that someone should not quote an experience, or refer an experience they have been told about (as long as they dont make the egg into a hen... and preferrably directly from a first hand source) is IMO perfectly ok.

-axel
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 05:06:42 pm by godtfred »
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troyword

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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2007, 04:19:47 pm »

Your "friend" is either a risk-taker or inexperienced.  There is no replacement for redundancy!  I assume with a production that large he had a duplicate backup standing by of his primary equipment.  I use an Aptus 22. It has been all over the world and used in all situations.  It has never failed me once.  Are there occasional hardware, software, cable, voltage, humidity,or any other misc. gremlins that plague us? Sure!  That is the nature of mechanical/electronic gear.  Expect it to break!  I am quite sure that someday all of my gear will fail.  Will it stop me from getting the shot? No way! Running Imac's on generators is risky.  Photo and computer gear don't mix well with small genrator power. I've seen plenty of gear fried by bad power.  I would never shoot teatherd in that situation anyway.  Firewire is too quirky.  It could be a bad cable or bad connectors that shut you down.  I have been working over 20 years in the industry as both an assistant and a photographer.  The only thing I know for sure is that your flight will be cancelled, the Towncar will not show up in time, the rental house will short you on some of your gear, the Celeb will only give you 30 minutes instead of 2 hours, the maid will steal your credit cards,the location doesn't look anything like the pictures you were shown, the model will have a fight with her boyfriend just before she arrives on your set, and it's now raining.  Your job is to get the shot. Period! Don't blame your gear. Expect it to break becase it will. The Leaf aptus is a great dependable back.  Anybody wanting to offload an Aptus cheap should send me an email.  I love bargains. troy@troyword.com
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marcwilson

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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2007, 04:28:35 pm »

Quote
COPIED OVER FROM THE LEAF FORUM.  THIS IS SCARY!

I´ve been getting these can´t connect messages with LC10 lately. Sometimes it takes me a few tries to connect, sometimes a good 20 minutes, but when it´s connected it´s bulletproof.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Does that mean the photographer went on this big shoot with equipment that he knew to be playing up?

I may be wrong but in that case you're always asking for trouble..wether its a top mfdb or a holga you're using.
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JTFOTO

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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2007, 06:04:53 pm »

YAYA!

First off it is a free country to post what I WANT TO POST!  If your company wasn't screwing up so badly, there would be no need to post this stuff.  You have TW here who like his Aptus. One out of who know how many

I am a Valeo 17 shooter, had an Aptus 75 which I returned on three occasions!  I have rented P25, P30 and P45 backs and have not had one problem.  From England, France, South America, All over America, Canada, Tokyo and Hong Kong.  NEVER HAD ONE ISSUE with a PhaseOne back or C1Pro EVER in the two and half years I have been digital.  No tethering issues, no glitches, zilch, zero, nothing, nada.

LEAF on the other hand, has been nothing but a pain.

I may want to go Hasselblad as I have rented it twice now and have had no problems and quite like the software.  My other concern is that I am a Contax, Blad V and RZ shooter and want something I can use between them all.

Are you slagging the guy who pasted this story the Venerable Troy House on the Leaf Forum!  Ia mposting this here because Leaf will not make an Open Forum.  

Are you going to delete my user profile at the Leaf forum now?

Leaf has done nothing but fail at everything it has promised.

You have had four prominent shooters on this forum dump their Leaf gear and openly switch to Phase and Hasselblad.  Three to Phase and one to Blad.  You can now count on a fifth openly leave LEAF for most likely Hasselblad.  iw ill most likely also dump my Valeo as a back up and go PhaseOne.

Don't be such a ninny and say

"No offence, but is there a point in posting this other than bad mouthing a product on a public forum?"

"So unless your motivation and opinion are clear and backed up by the complete set of facts, I would advise you to avoid posting such quotes in the future."

If you prodcut worked you would not hear so many negative issues.

Best of luck with your product!  I was a loyal Leaf customer and left well over a year ago and have been renting.  You know what every rental house in the world has?  PHASEONE!
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heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2007, 06:38:13 pm »

JTFoto, I don't know you. Now you've vented, at least a little bit, cool down a little.

There are certain points to your post:

1. Maybe Leaf backs are faulty as hell, but the story you tell, tells just one thing, 5 people, who should solve the problem somehow, didn't do their job well and I don#t blame the photographer.

2. You didn't post the whole thing was under investigation by Leaf, where is the follow up...what happened?

3. You're right, this is internet. You can say and post whatever you want. Yaya might be wrong.

4. Your friend went without back up. I understand digital backs are expensive, even to rent... but

5. Whatever, you are free to choose the product you like best, gives you the best file, is stable as hell,... If you believe what companies tell you, you will get the more expensive Shell super duper 98     high voltage gasoline at the gas station, just because they tell you Michael Schumacher drove to immortality on Formula 1 with them as sponsor. So what.

I honor you wish to inform, but in the end your post only confirms one thing: pe prepared.


To your info: I don't own a MDFB, I'm just renting. Anything available that will do the job. From any company. But I'm in the marked to buy a used back. So, how much is your Aptus going for...?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 06:40:22 pm by heinrichvoelkel »
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2007, 06:42:43 pm »

Quote
Best of luck with your product!  I was a loyal Leaf customer and left well over a year ago and have been renting.  You know what every rental house in the world has?  PHASEONE!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you are not a Leaf customer anymore, why even bother bashing them?

I'd agree that taking up such a huge assignment without a back up is very un-professional. That guy should blame it on his poor logistics.

Now, there may be problems with Leaf backs in some occasions, but the whole speech you put up focusses on the impact of that on a photographer's carreer and reputation, right? The only thing there is to that is the photographer's inability to plan well. Period.

Cheers,
Bernard

Don Libby

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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2007, 06:47:19 pm »

An people ask me why I only shoot landscape and nature  

Quote
Your "friend" is either a risk-taker or inexperienced.  There is no replacement for redundancy!  I assume with a production that large he had a duplicate backup standing by of his primary equipment.  I use an Aptus 22. It has been all over the world and used in all situations.  It has never failed me once.  Are there occasional hardware, software, cable, voltage, humidity,or any other misc. gremlins that plague us? Sure!  That is the nature of mechanical/electronic gear.  Expect it to break!  I am quite sure that someday all of my gear will fail.  Will it stop me from getting the shot? No way! Running Imac's on generators is risky.  Photo and computer gear don't mix well with small genrator power. I've seen plenty of gear fried by bad power.  I would never shoot teatherd in that situation anyway.  Firewire is too quirky.  It could be a bad cable or bad connectors that shut you down.  I have been working over 20 years in the industry as both an assistant and a photographer.  The only thing I know for sure is that your flight will be cancelled, the Towncar will not show up in time, the rental house will short you on some of your gear, the Celeb will only give you 30 minutes instead of 2 hours, the maid will steal your credit cards,the location doesn't look anything like the pictures you were shown, the model will have a fight with her boyfriend just before she arrives on your set, and it's now raining.  Your job is to get the shot. Period! Don't blame your gear. Expect it to break becase it will. The Leaf aptus is a great dependable back.  Anybody wanting to offload an Aptus cheap should send me an email.  I love bargains. troy@troyword.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112926\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yaya

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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2007, 06:47:23 pm »

Quote
YAYA!

First off it is a free country to post what I WANT TO POST!  If your company wasn't screwing up so badly, there would be no need to post this stuff.  You have TW here who like his Aptus. One out of who know how many

I am a Valeo 17 shooter, had an Aptus 75 which I returned on three occasions!  I have rented P25, P30 and P45 backs and have not had one problem.  From England, France, South America, All over America, Canada, Tokyo and Hong Kong.  NEVER HAD ONE ISSUE with a PhaseOne back or C1Pro EVER in the two and half years I have been digital.  No tethering issues, no glitches, zilch, zero, nothing, nada.

LEAF on the other hand, has been nothing but a pain.

I may want to go Hasselblad as I have rented it twice now and have had no problems and quite like the software.  My other concern is that I am a Contax, Blad V and RZ shooter and want something I can use between them all.

Are you slagging the guy who pasted this story the Venerable Troy House on the Leaf Forum!  Ia mposting this here because Leaf will not make an Open Forum. 

Are you going to delete my user profile at the Leaf forum now?

Leaf has done nothing but fail at everything it has promised.

You have had four prominent shooters on this forum dump their Leaf gear and openly switch to Phase and Hasselblad.  Three to Phase and one to Blad.  You can now count on a fifth openly leave LEAF for most likely Hasselblad.  iw ill most likely also dump my Valeo as a back up and go PhaseOne.

Don't be such a ninny and say

"No offence, but is there a point in posting this other than bad mouthing a product on a public forum?"

"So unless your motivation and opinion are clear and backed up by the complete set of facts, I would advise you to avoid posting such quotes in the future."

If you prodcut worked you would not hear so many negative issues.

Best of luck with your product!  I was a loyal Leaf customer and left well over a year ago and have been renting.  You know what every rental house in the world has?  PHASEONE!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course it is one's right to post anything in public and I respect Troy House's choice to quote his friend on our forum. Troy is well aware of my opinion FYI.

You are saying that 4 people have switched over and this may well be the case. I can say that I have a few more than 4 people switching over to Leaf from other brands, 2 off which from a nearly new shiny 31MP back, but that's not the point!

If you're telling your story and share it with people, then you'll be taken seriously but if you are quoting a quote from a closed forum, not knowing whehter the actual photographer was looking for that kind of "publicity" or not, then I would say this is a bit irresponsible.

No one is going to touch your account as long as you use the product and you contribute to the discussions (complaining or not).

Leaf currently is selling more backs than ever with a wide range of products and a growing customer base, showing growth and profitability that other brands may or may not show.

We're investing in new sensor, software and camera technologies, constantly improving the reliability of our products and the level of our service and support. We have just recently moved to a brand new building with improved facilities for design & manufacturing.

For a company of 50 people we have a lot to be proud of, of course there is always room for improvement. I believe this is similiar in other companies.

Your choice of back is yours and is well respected...this however doesn't mean that other brands are inferior and that they should be regarded as such.

respectfuly

Yair (real name)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 07:00:37 pm by yaya »
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troyhouse

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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2007, 08:48:49 pm »

For the record, I asked permission from the photographer in using his quote. JTPhoto(whoever that is) did not ask for my permission. I agree that this was posted in a private forum and it should not have been posted here without asking.


later....
Oh, just realized, you're the person in January who refuses to state who they really are and threw in the "I assisted Annie" and the Canon mkIII bomb who was selling his p25(now you are a valeo 17 owner, so you traded your p25 for a valeo 17?, curious as to why?) and was totally getting out of mf to only shoot Canon. This suddenly all makes sense.
Canon Bomb
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 09:50:46 pm by troyhouse »
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JeffVo

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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2007, 10:18:55 pm »

Just thought I'd chime in on the matter of Leaf reliability.  I think the first Leaf I had a chance to use was the 6mpx C-most, so you could say I've had a fair amount experience with the stuff.  I would say from my experience over several years that Leaf by far is the least reliable of the 3 majors.  I know one photographer that went through 5 valeos and aptus backs over 2 years before he finally gave up on Leaf.  One of the bigger dealers in town said he had seen 3 DOA backs from leaf with his own eyes.  Not a very good track record.  I've seen two Aptus backs refuse to work with G5 quads (phase worked fine).  I actually bought two extra Quads from the Apple store to make sure it wasn't my machines setup (it wasn't)  No matter how many boosters or reapters or cables I tried  neither back worked on any of the three machines.  The response I got from leaf about this matter was tepid, but they did tell me that the Quad would process files much slower (great a fast computer processes files slower!).    I admit Phase isn't perfect, but most issues are minor (restart software or such).  I have seen many many many shoots with the phase with nary a hiccup.  I will say the people at Leaf America are really great people and as helpful as they can be, but unfortunately they are left to deal with problems of a poorly designed back.  I find it disheartening that a leaf rep would try to quite such talk, and that is why I felt compelled to chime in at all.  It is a better place for all photographs when our experiences are shared.  -Jeff
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thsinar

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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2007, 12:19:31 am »

My own opinion on this topic:

it is obviously the right of each and anybody to post and inform about any subject/product, PROVIDED that it is done in a fair and open way, and with NO other intention or agenda but to inform honestly AND fully.

By this I mean that the concerned manufacturer should be given the chance to have ALL facts laid down.

And one of the first condition (for me) to be taken seriously and to give the manufacturer a fair chance, is to post under ones own name. If this is not the case, it is too easy to post all and anything with the only intention to harm (a brand or a person) like it happened on other occasions here in this forum.

And of course, quotes should be posted WITH the permission of the concerned author.

We all know that all digital backs of any brand, included Sinarbacks AS WELL AS the one mentioned as being bullet-proof can have in some situations a problem (being it the back itself or the environment/configuration this back is used in/with). Pretending or claiming the contrary is not to be honest. The question and the point is then to be prepared for this and to have the necessary support to deal with it efficiently.

Thierry
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troyhouse

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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2007, 12:50:30 am »

Quote
Just thought I'd chime in on the matter of Leaf reliability.  I think the first Leaf I had a chance to use was the 6mpx C-most, so you could say I've had a fair amount experience with the stuff.  I would say from my experience over several years that Leaf by far is the least reliable of the 3 majors.  I know one photographer that went through 5 valeos and aptus backs over 2 years before he finally gave up on Leaf.  One of the bigger dealers in town said he had seen 3 DOA backs from leaf with his own eyes.  Not a very good track record.  I've seen two Aptus backs refuse to work with G5 quads (phase worked fine).  I actually bought two extra Quads from the Apple store to make sure it wasn't my machines setup (it wasn't)  No matter how many boosters or reapters or cables I tried  neither back worked on any of the three machines.  The response I got from leaf about this matter was tepid, but they did tell me that the Quad would process files much slower (great a fast computer processes files slower!).    I admit Phase isn't perfect, but most issues are minor (restart software or such).  I have seen many many many shoots with the phase with nary a hiccup.  I will say the people at Leaf America are really great people and as helpful as they can be, but unfortunately they are left to deal with problems of a poorly designed back.  I find it disheartening that a leaf rep would try to quite such talk, and that is why I felt compelled to chime in at all.  It is a better place for all photographs when our experiences are shared.  -Jeff
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112979\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeffvo,
 Congrats on just joining tonight and posting right away. Sure you've heard this before but from a distance you look remarkable similar to JTFOTO. Coincidence I'm sure....
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 12:55:55 am by troyhouse »
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ericstaud

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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2007, 12:57:03 am »

Great entertainment JT!

Of course, in the end of the original story the problems were solved by shooting untethered with CF cards.  Nice you choose to exclude this part of the story.

How is your Canon system working out?  Shooting tethered with it is such a vast improvement over tethering with MFDB's from what I hear    

Maybe it' time to go back under the bridge

http://tinyurl.com/28o42
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 01:14:28 am by ericstaud »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2007, 02:12:45 am »

I have seen the opening post on the Leaf forum as well. As much as it is a horror story I would put the majority of the fault with the photographer in question. Who in his right mind would setup such a major shoot without a backup?

In the end they could shoot to CF. In my experience this indicates not a problem with the back but more likely with cables or computer.

I have worked with several Leaf backs starting with the C-Most. I have yet to encounter a real problem (knock on wood).

Sure, my Aptus is of to green but  that is manageable. Sure it sometimes (rarely) freezes. Other than that I have not had any problem with any back (C-Most, Valeo and Aptus). The hardware I find remarkably stable.

Now, if we would have been talking software that is something totally different. If I would be complaining about something Leaf that would be it (and as many others I am and I have) maybe with the fact they lack an adapter system.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 02:20:38 am by Dustbak »
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JeffVo

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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2007, 02:50:17 am »

Quote
Jeffvo,
 Congrats on just joining tonight and posting right away. Sure you've heard this before but from a distance you look remarkable similar to JTFOTO. Coincidence I'm sure....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112994\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Oh I'm not some troll. I'm the real deal with plenty of  experience.   And, although the original post seems to be from a troll the story of his seems to be grounded in truth.    First the Leaf Rep calls out the original poster ,and now you try to say I'm to be discredited knowing nothing of me because you think my post SEEMS similar to his? Thats pretty weak Troy.   Do you know what a UPD file does?  Have you spoken many times to Rick and Pat at leaf America?  Do you know an Aptus back needs more Firewire Voltage than the Valeo?  I speak the truth I have seen as to inform others as I have been informed by this forum.
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ixpressraf

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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2007, 02:51:06 am »

Quote
I have seen the opening post on the Leaf forum as well. As much as it is a horror story I would put the majority of the fault with the photographer in question. Who in his right mind would setup such a major shoot without a backup?

In the end they could shoot to CF. In my experience this indicates not a problem with the back but more likely with cables or computer.

I have worked with several Leaf backs starting with the C-Most. I have yet to encounter a real problem (knock on wood).

Sure, my Aptus is of to green but  that is manageable. Sure it sometimes (rarely) freezes. Other than that I have not had any problem with any back (C-Most, Valeo and Aptus). The hardware I find remarkably stable.

Now, if we would have been talking software that is something totally different. If I would be complaining about something Leaf that would be it (and as many others I am and I have) maybe with the fact they lack an adapter system.
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For the adapter system.....go hasselblad.    
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