Sinar M anyone?

[Dustbak]

I use (amongst other things) a Digiflex II. I was actually able to obtain a second backup body which I felt was needed since the thing is out of production. Thanks Sam for pointing me towards the second hand body on Teamwork!

I take about 50% of all my commercial shots with the Digiflex.

The Sinar M (with the Nikon F-mount lensboard) should provide the same kind of functionality and is a system that is actually still alive (I guess).

I have never heard of anyone actually buying a Sinar M. Is there anyone here that has one and how do you like the thing? Did you pay the stellar listprice or have prices come down to more earthly regions?

[rainer_v]

hi,
i dont have one, but i worked several times with one for aerials. i liked the m lenses ( i used the 40 and the 80 ), they have been excellent sharp even at widest aperture. the camera is ultramodern ..... i usually shoot with shift cameras and so for me its simply too expensive ,  i rarely use  my mf cameras,- if i would have more need for a system like this maybe it i would go for one, but i went to the contax route,- which is an excellent camera and lenses, although the m- lenses are still better, esp. wide open.

[Eric Zepeda]

I was just holding one in my hands yesterday. Calumet here in NYC is having a grand opening at their new store and has a whole floor of reps and gear. Sinar was there with the M and eMotion75.

Pretty amazing camera, and the Zeiss lenses are sweet, but the price is way out of my budget.

[jimgolden]

the M looks interesting, but I havent actually seen one or heard of someone owning one either.
whats the list price? is it a tank?

[Mort54]

Wow, I didn't even know this thing existed (I've got to get out more   ). Please, someone post a rough price for it.

With the Nikon mirror module and Nikon lenses, I assume that the lens projects a standard 35mm image circle, or do they increase the distance between the rear element of the lens and the sensor to project a bigger circle? Using a 48 x 36 sensor, would you just crop the resulting image down to 36mm x 24mm when using the Nikon mirror module and lenses?

With the Sinaron mirror module, do you end up with standard 645 format? The shutter size is 56mm x 42mm, so I'm guessing that's the case? It sounds like the Sinaron lenses are actually Zeiss lenses. Is this correct? And is the mount for these lenses unique to the Sinar M, or is it the Hassy V mount? I see in the data sheet that the Sinaron mirror module can take Hassy V lenses.

The literature suggests third party backs are supported. Does anyone know if Phase backs are supported?

Thanks for posting,
Hans.

[Dustbak]

Wow, I didn't even know this thing existed (I've got to get out more   ). Please, someone post a rough price for it.

With the Nikon mirror module and Nikon lenses, I assume that the lens projects a standard 35mm image circle, or do they increase the distance between the rear element of the lens and the sensor to project a bigger circle? Using a 48 x 36 sensor, would you just crop the resulting image down to 36mm x 24mm when using the Nikon mirror module and lenses?

With the Sinaron mirror module, do you end up with standard 645 format? The shutter size is 56mm x 42mm, so I'm guessing that's the case? It sounds like the Sinaron lenses are actually Zeiss lenses. Is this correct? And is the mount for these lenses unique to the Sinar M, or is it the Hassy V mount? I see in the data sheet that the Sinaron mirror module can take Hassy V lenses.

The literature suggests third party backs are supported. Does anyone know if Phase backs are supported?

Thanks for posting,
Hans.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112215\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I assume they have the Nikkor lenses at the proper register distance to prevent loss of infinity focus and other weird focussing. Many Nikkor (or F-mount lenses) cover a larger than 24x36 image circle (especially above 35mm focal length).

Using a larger sensor, you just crop away the parts that are unacceptable qualitywise. With some lenses this will be nothing (when used with a 'croppped' 43x31 MF sensor I know for sure, I have not seen it with a 48x36) when using the Sinar M. The M has a shutter large enough to clear 56x42 (where my Digiflex is just a bit over 24x36).

The Sinaron lenses are not the same mount as the V I believe but they are Zeiss lenses. You need an adapter to use the V system lenses.

The drawback is the 1/100 sync and the price. I do like the modular nature of the thing. If it just would be a little bit less expensive so more people would buy it. I have always been really hesitant to get one. It appears as one of those things that eventually just fades away if you know what I mean

Rough price range M without any module 4K euros (5,5K USD). Per module another 3K (4K USD). Not sure about the Sinaron AF lenses.

Thierry, please feel free to correct as you see fit

[mattlap2]

Wow, I didn't even know this thing existed (I've got to get out more   ). Please, someone post a rough price for it.

With the Nikon mirror module and Nikon lenses, I assume that the lens projects a standard 35mm image circle, or do they increase the distance between the rear element of the lens and the sensor to project a bigger circle? Using a 48 x 36 sensor, would you just crop the resulting image down to 36mm x 24mm when using the Nikon mirror module and lenses?

With the Sinaron mirror module, do you end up with standard 645 format? The shutter size is 56mm x 42mm, so I'm guessing that's the case? It sounds like the Sinaron lenses are actually Zeiss lenses. Is this correct? And is the mount for these lenses unique to the Sinar M, or is it the Hassy V mount? I see in the data sheet that the Sinaron mirror module can take Hassy V lenses.

The literature suggests third party backs are supported. Does anyone know if Phase backs are supported?

Thanks for posting,
Hans.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112215\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hans,

There M camera system is a modular system.   There were 3 different mirror modules available.   One for the Nikon Mount, One for the Hasselblad V series mount and one for the AF lenses.    The Nikon Mirror Module is recently discontinued, but there still may be stock in Switzerland.   The reason it was discontinued is because it will not cover full frame on any of Sinar's current backs.   It was designed when Sinar was still shipping the 43H 11mp back.

The Sinar AF lenses are Zeiss glass.   Very quick and precise AF focus.

The camera does not take 3rd party backs.   I have been told it was offered to a number of other back manufacturers but nobody else took advantage of the offer.    

The camera is pretty pricey but it is so much more than just a medium format camera body.   Because of its modular design it can serve as a high speed shuter on the P3 camera and as a standalone (like the old sinarcam) using live video and the lens modules.    There have been a few threads in the past and I am sure they can be found in the archives here.  

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 60-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com

[thsinar]

To all and to complete Matt,

- yes, the Nikon module si discontinued (for the reasons mentioned by Matt), but we have still in stock.

- the AF Module for the Sinaron Digital Zeiss lenses does also "accept" the Hasselblad V lenses: no need to purchase another module when you have the AF already.

- 3rd party backs: here we are at a point which I guess will raise questions for another issue.

It is so that it is up to the back manufacturer to show interest and be willing to make an adapter for the camera, not the opposite way. Phase One, Hasselblad, etc ... have never shown any interest in doing so (may be for obvious reasons that we were competitors?).

This being said, I won't answer nor comment if this raises other questions concerning another issue often discussed the "hot" way here.


Best regards,
Thierry

Hans,

There M camera system is a modular system.   There were 3 different mirror modules available.   One for the Nikon Mount, One for the Hasselblad V series mount and one for the AF lenses.    The Nikon Mirror Module is recently discontinued, but there still may be stock in Switzerland.   The reason it was discontinued is because it will not cover full frame on any of Sinar's current backs.   It was designed when Sinar was still shipping the 43H 11mp back.

The Sinar AF lenses are Zeiss glass.   Very quick and precise AF focus.

The camera does not take 3rd party backs.   I have been told it was offered to a number of other back manufacturers but nobody else took advantage of the offer.   

The camera is pretty pricey but it is so much more than just a medium format camera body.   Because of its modular design it can serve as a high speed shuter on the P3 camera and as a standalone (like the old sinarcam) using live video and the lens modules.    There have been a few threads in the past and I am sure they can be found in the archives here.  

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 60-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112218\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Morgan_Moore]

- yes, the Nikon module si discontinued (for the reasons mentioned by Matt), but we have still in stock.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Another bit of 'brilliance' from sinar that I just dont understand

I own just about every decent nikkor from 14 to 600 and there is no fullframe body for them (exept SLRn which is now pretty dead)

If they kept that module and made the M fit some leaf shutter lenses then it would be the best bit of kit ever

Right now I think it is the biggest waste of R+D money ever

You can laugh at the list prices on this 'website'.. [a href=\"http://www.lastraimaging.co.uk/]http://www.lastraimaging.co.uk/[/url]

SMM

[thsinar]

Dear Sam,

why being so "agressive"?

I said: "the Nikon module is officially discontinued, but you can still have it".

The reason is simple: we used to sell this module very well in the times of the 6 MPx/11MPx and 16 MPx sensors. Since the bigger CCD's have hit the market, the Nikon lenses on this camera does seem not to make sense for a majority, proven by the sales figures of this module.

Any company in the world would discontinue a product when it cannot be sold any longer: it is logic and understandable. IMO it has nothing to do with "brillance" or "waste of R&D money".

Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry

Another bit of 'brilliance' from sinar that I just dont understand

I own just about every decent nikkor from 14 to 600 and there is no fullframe body for them (exept SLRn which is now pretty dead)

If they kept that module and made the M fit some leaf shutter lenses then it would be the best bit of kit ever

Right now I think it is the biggest waste of R+D money ever

You can laugh at the list prices on this 'website'.. http://www.lastraimaging.co.uk/

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112281\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Morgan_Moore]

Dear Sam,

why being so "agressive"?

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am not aggressive - I am only teasing - I am not sure your native language so maybe my english seems a little 'harsh'

If you make a great set of wheels and put it on a bad car and the car doesnt sell then you dont blame the wheels

You keep the wheels and make a better car for them

IMO the M car is flawed by the synch speed while the concept of a nikor adapter is excellent

I have worked it out..

Make a sinar M module for the 6008 lenses

Then the sinar M would have fast synch speeds and be an MF system that came onto my RADAR

AND this camera would be useable with my nikor investment

So I would have the best MF camera, and the best '35mm' camera too

---

One piece of information that is not clear is whether the nikon on the M strictly restricts the image size to that of the 35mm chip or whether the image is only restricted by the image circle

Dustbak and my self are both convinced (with some experience) that the image circle of some nikkors covers at leats 17mp worth of a 22mp chip

Maybe not in a LPI test but in pictures - which is what I take

I bet that if you brought out that 6008 lense module and cut the price you would rejuvinate interest in the WHOLE M system including the nikon module but no your RandD money has been going up against the wall on the Hy6 which doesnt offer as far as I can see much over the H1 or the 6008 in fact without a decent wide the H is ahead

To me most sinar products seem 'so close yet so far'

Th M is beaten by the H1 (synch speed)

The Hy6 is beaten by the H1 (wide angle)

Sinar seems to me to have failed to make some jumps in thinking required by the digital era

While I can afford many film types 35mm 645 and 54 I and most others can only afford one digital capture device so maximum flexibility is required now in a way that it wasnt a decade ago

In terms of wasting R+D money if I had been in the meeting where someone said 100 flash synch I would have said 'forget it' the thing wouldnt have even got out of the meeting

Especailly if I had been making cameras with leaf lenses for 100 years

But then what do I know about what photographers want to buy - Im only a photographer

p.s on the M what speed do blad V lenses synch at ??

SMM

[rainer_v]

funny to see the cameras just in that way.

in one or two generations of sensors the sensor size will increase somehow.
i believe that because  its just consequent.....
although i dont believe in huge increasements, but even a real 6x45 or 6x6 size will make the nice 28mm hassy lens obsolet.
nice strategic idea to sell now lenses which will be usuable just 3 or 5 years....
and funny that  noone here cares about this ,
with so many speculations which are done otherwise.

[thsinar]

yes, you right, am not a native speaking english! Only french and swiss: yes, both citizenships.

You are forgiven!  

Seriously, you are certainly right in many aspects concerning the sinar m. But we never planed to make it a MF camera to go out on location and to compete with exisiting and fast sync systems. I have already explained this in another tread, we have thought this camera out to be the ultimate "shutter" in studio and on view cameras like the p2/p3: that is also were it is successful. Adding the MF Hasselblad module and the Nikon module came only on top of this, and later the AF module.

I shall forward your opinion and suggestions anyway, like always. Thanks for your thoughts: there are definitively some interesting ideas!

As for your question: the "m" does not restrict the image size to 35mm, so the size would be exactly what the lens covers (image circle). I dont know how much these Nikon lenses cover, but in any case it is certainly different from lens to lens. I did myself work with some like the 28mm and the 35mm and not much more was covered before getting vigneting. It is certainly possible to get the information about image circle from Nikon.

Best regards,
Thierry

I am not aggressive - I am only teasing - I am not sure your native language so maybe my english seems a little 'harsh'

If you make a great set of wheels and put it on a bad car and the car doesnt sell then you dont blame the wheels

You keep the wheels and make a better car for them

IMO the M car is flawed by the synch speed while the concept of a nikor adapter is excellent

I have worked it out..

Make a sinar M module for the 6008 lenses

Then the sinar M would have fast synch speeds and be an MF system that came onto my RADAR

AND this camera would be useable with my nikor investment

So I would have the best MF camera, and the best '35mm' camera too

---

One piece of information that is not clear is whether the nikon on the M strictly restricts the image size to that of the 35mm chip or whether the image is only restricted by the image circle

Dustbak and my self are both convinced (with some experience) that the image circle of some nikkors covers at leats 17mp worth of a 22mp chip

Maybe not in a LPI test but in pictures - which is what I take

I bet that if you brought out that 6008 lense module and cut the price you would rejuvinate interest in the WHOLE M system including the nikon module but no your RandD money has been going up against the wall on the Hy6 which doesnt offer as far as I can see much over the H1 or the 6008 in fact without a decent wide the H is ahead

To me most sinar products seem 'so close yet so far'

Th M is beaten by the H1 (synch speed)

The Hy6 is beaten by the H1 (wide angle)

Sinar seems to me to have failed to make some jumps in thinking required by the digital era

While I can afford many film types 35mm 645 and 54 I and most others can only afford one digital capture device so maximum flexibility is required now in a way that it wasnt a decade ago

In terms of wasting R+D money if I had been in the meeting where someone said 100 flash synch I would have said 'forget it' the thing wouldnt have even got out of the meeting

Especailly if I had been making cameras with leaf lenses for 100 years

But then what do I know about what photographers want to buy - Im only a photographer

p.s on the M what speed do blad V lenses synch at ??

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112330\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Dustbak]

I completely agree with Sam.

An M with somewhat higher sync speed, AF module that can handle central shutter lenses like the Rolleis (1/500 and more sync speed) with the Nikkor module for a somewhat more reasonable price would be very much on my radar.

I believe the M did not really take of because of both sync and high price tag.

Nikkor lens circle varies, it is not constant. Some lenses have larger circles than others.

LPI data of some F mount lenses are not matched by any other lens currently available. I just happen to own some of these, I really love the fact I can use them with my MFDB.

[thsinar]

just a little precision:

the Sinar m did not take of in a certain market (the one many from the LL Forum represent and are in): we have been (and still are) seling this camera system very well in other fields.

Best regards,
Thierry

I completely agree with Sam.

I believe the M did not really take of because of both sync and high price tag.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112335\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Morgan_Moore]

just a little precision:

the Sinar m did not take of in a certain market (the one many from the LL Forum represent and are in): we have been (and still are) seling this camera system very well in other fields.

Best regards,
Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well your website lays out its intended market..

[a href=\"http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1321-23-1408-urlvars-rand-555.html]http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-132...s-rand-555.html[/url]

Which goes on about flexibiliy, change of market, use on location etc

IT seems the product doesnt match your 'studio sucess' chat

Everyone knows what say a P2 is for - studio - and it does the job

The M is more confused

My requirements I admit are not the same as many - my rural location means I will be doing boats one day and macro jewelery the next this week and I am 300miles from a hire shop

My financial turnover only justifies one digital back (over 3-5 years)

I am also content at 22mp which produces glossy mag format wonderfully

And my history means I have a pile of nikkors with no good body for them

But I trhink there are many (thousands) of upper/mid range commercial shooters in my boat

Leave them to thier H1s one if you want - Ferarri doesnt sell SUVs which is fine too

I just think Sinar is missing one product somewhere that will make it THE system

It is now clear to me that that is a 6008 lense box for the m

If you produce it I deserve a free one

SMM

[Morgan_Moore]

i .. believe .. 28mm hassy lenses obsolet(e).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112333\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I cant see this because a H3d and a 28 will make loverly images suitable for many uses for ever

Even if a cameras comes out that can produce a 700DPI billboard that doesnt even make a Lomo obsolete let alone a H1 with a 22mp back like I have

S

[doncody]

funny to see the cameras just in that way.

in one or two generations of sensors the sensor size will increase somehow.
i believe that because  its just consequential.....
although i dont believe in huge increasements here, but even a real 6x45 or 6x6 size will make all the nice 28mm hassy lenses obsolet.
nice strategic idea to sell now lenses also which will be usuable also just 3 or 5 years....
and funny that  noone here cares about this more or less simple thought,
with so many speculations which are done otherwise.
 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112333\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Rainer,

I agree with you.  In one of my former lives I was an audio engineer and watched digital steamroller analogue.  I'm sure the comparison/application is not precise but I get the sense that digital developments in photography are reaching the exponential stage of development.

I expect shortly to re-enter the MF world but this time digitally, and have begun to think maybe the 503cw/6008/RZs will have second lives with a 6x6 sensor?

Wouldn't a 6x6 by Phase back solve their dilemma with the move towards closed systems by the camera manufactures?

What will become of all those poor H cameras?

Best,
Don

[mahleu]

Leave them to thier H1s one if you want - Ferarri doesnt sell SUVs which is fine too

But porsche does

[Dustbak]

But porsche does
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112355\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And it is a real success too.