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Author Topic: Go MFDB? or wait to see what Canon's got  (Read 5851 times)

Randal32

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Go MFDB? or wait to see what Canon's got
« on: April 05, 2007, 01:36:43 pm »

I'm about to jump into MFDB, but was wondering if I should wait and see what Canon will be coming out with next.

Of course rumor has it that they'll have a 22MP.... 1Ds MarkIII ?

I'm looking at a P30+ ....

Getting into a system is a big investment at least initially.

Any thoughts... should we wait or do you think the quality of MFDB will still be significantly better?

Thanks,
Randal
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 02:05:49 pm »

Unless Canon has invested in a whole new technology, their latest chips should have the same colour and shadow problems of their predecessors.

Also, whatever sensor they bring out next, you will still have that tiny viewfinder and those lenses which are (mostly) just not up to the job.
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TJ Asher

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Go MFDB? or wait to see what Canon's got
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 02:24:05 pm »

Quote
Unless Canon has invested in a whole new technology, their latest chips should have the same colour and shadow problems of their predecessors.

Also, whatever sensor they bring out next, you will still have that tiny viewfinder and those lenses which are (mostly) just not up to the job.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110832\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree with Graham. The sensor in the 1DsII already out-resolves many of the lenses. It would be worse with more detail.

My $.02.
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Randal32

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Go MFDB? or wait to see what Canon's got
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 02:29:05 pm »

yeah, I here that's the issue Canon has had with creating a bigger sensor.

Thanks for the feedback....

R
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Steve_Townsend

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Go MFDB? or wait to see what Canon's got
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 06:47:42 pm »

I couldn't agree more.  I have a 5D and a 1DsMkII and still use them alot, even though I have just invested in the P45.  It really is horses for courses.  But when you see the file, the colour, the dynamic range and how much you can manipulate a 16 bit image you will not be disappointed.

One aspect I was interested in with the new 1DMk3 is the 14 bit file.  If the new 1DsMk3 was to have a 16bit file that would worth a look.  We certainly do not need anymore than 16.7MP with their current range of lenses.

Steve
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rainer_v

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Go MFDB? or wait to see what Canon's got
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 08:59:05 pm »

i dont think that the quality differences have much to do with 12, 14 or 16bits.... and more so because not any actual mf back delivers true 16bit files, all provide 16bit data with 2 empty bits., which equals 14bit
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 08:59:35 pm by rehnniar »
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Lust4Life

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Go MFDB? or wait to see what Canon's got
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2007, 10:07:28 am »

I'm a landscape shooter.  Used Hasselblad and 4x5 for many years.  Scan on my own Howtek HiResolve 8000 line scanner.

Last November a friend of mine convinced me to buy a Canon 1DS Mk II with the 16-35 L, the 24 TSE L and the 70-200 L IS lenses.  Purchased all new in hopes of displacing film/scanning in my life.

Lesson learned - the Canon lenses, even their L class, are not even close to what I have expected from the Hassie I class lenses I've used.  I've sold, or am selling off, all of the Canon gear and that lesson cost me a couple of grand!

Now shooting the 503CW with 50, 100 and 150 CFI lenses.  Using the P-45 back and waiting for delivery of the P-45 Plus.

In short, learn from my expensive lesson and go MF.  Canon can't touch it IF you are after quality and not just shooting action sports.

Jack

ternst

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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2007, 11:09:37 am »

I've done about the same thing as Jack - I'm a landscape shooter and decided to bite the bullet and get a P-45/+ instead of the constant waiting around for the next best thing from Nikon/Canon that would still be less than medium format digital. 35mm still has a long way to catch up to what the P-45/30 can do now. I'm getting long in the tooth and only have a few more picture book projects in me and I might as well go out shooting with the best.

Tim Ernst in Arkansas
http://www.Cloudland.net
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Dan Wells

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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2007, 06:09:43 pm »

I'm a Nikon landscape/macro shooter, and am seriously thinking about adding a medium format system with a digital back these days. I'm wondering if the present stagnation in upper-level 35mm (whether full-frame or not) type DSLRs is just marketing, or if we've actually run up against the laws of physics here - nobody can figure out how to add resolution without losing tonality and dynamic range, and vice versa? Another possibility is that the physics-based limit is in lens design - nobody's figured out how to build a lens with decent coverage that resolves better than 6 microns? Lenses sharper than that exist that are able to cover a fingernail sized area (if they didn't, all digital compacts would have effective resolutions of 2-3 mp due to lens blur - some do, but not all!), but they may be nearly impossible to build with broader coverage?   Almost all the major players, whether 35mm or medium format, have settled into a pixel pitch range of 6 to 9 microns. Without moving to 4 or 5 micron pixels, we can't add resolution, and smaller pixels mean more noise and less dynamic range. Could it be that nobody's figured out how to deal with this yet, therefore sensors are stuck where they are for right now? A 6 micron full-frame 35mm DSLR would have 21-22 million pixels, and that seems to be at the edge of what present sensors can do - is a 21 MP EOS 1Ds mk III that different from the Mk II? Nikon already has their DX sensors crammed even closer to the 6 micron mark - the D200 is right at 6 microns, and the D2x and D2xs are actually slightly under 6 microns, the smallest pixels on an upper-end DSLR today.
Without cramming sensors tighter than 6 microns, we have image size restrictions of:
APS-C 10 mp
35 Full Frame 22 mp
"Double 35" - cropped 645 sensors - under 46 mp depending on exact dimensions (some are slightly above 36x48mm)
      Will it take technologies like Foveon-type sensors or Super CCD to add image quality (whether or not this is accomplished by adding resolution) above this? We've had sensors in the 6-7 micron range since at least August 2004 (EOS 20D), yet nobody's come up with a satisfactory sensor with a tighter pixel pitch... Have we hit the wall? If so, then buy what you need with confidence that nobody else will introduce something that outresolves it for less anytime soon (without a technological breakthrough)? We also haven't seen (apart from the low-resolution Fujis and Sigmas, which, until recently, also meant putting up with an outdated camera body) anything with much better per pixel image quality than a 2004 20d in the 35mm type cameras. From what I've read and the samples I've seen, digital backs ARE substantially better, even pixel for pixel, possibly due to extremely high quality supporting electronics.
     One interesting possibility that COULD pop up with current technology is a full frame 35 mm camera using Fuji's Super CCD. With their existing pixel pitch, this would have nearly "15+15" mp (15 million regular pixels plus an equal number of tiny ones). Reports I've read put the per-pixel quality of those Fuji sensors (dynamic range, tonality, etc...) extremely high - well above any other 35mm type camera, and at least competitive with digital backs on a pixel by pixel basis - the problem so far is that the maximum resolution has only been 6 mp. If a 15 mp camera using the Fuji chip showed up, it would probably have stunning image quality well above that of the 1Ds mk II. Due to the two-part pixels and odd orientation, the Fuji sensors also tend to outresolve their primary pixel count by about 50% (a 6+6 mp Super CCD behaves roughly like a 9 mp sensor in terms of resolution and outdoes a 9 mp sensor substantially in tonality and DR). This suggests that a 15 + 15 mp Super CCD might behave like an extremely high quality conventional 22.5 mp CCD - a P25, for example... This would be substantially better than what's expected from a Canon 22 mp sensor using current technology. Of course, this beast doesn't exist and I have no information on whether it is even possible to manufacture a full-frame Super CCD or what the cost would be.
     The other wild card is, of course, the Foveon sensor and its allies. While Sigma's cheating by counting each tricolor pixel three times (the SD14 isn't really a 14 mp camera), it does resolve better than other sensors of its base pixel count (and it has excellent color) - does anyone know about the DR? A full-frame 14-16 (real) megapixel version of this sensor could be very interesting, especially if it were in a non-Sigma body. Canon's working on something like that, aren't they?  
    If Nikon's new pro camera turns out to be full frame Super CCD, and Canon's is some Foveon variant, we could see some real strides in image quality on the 35mm side. Other than that, I haven't seen any evidence of anything but stagnation - the present image quality champ was crowned in 2004...


                                                        -Dan
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scott_dobry

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Go MFDB? or wait to see what Canon's got
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2007, 09:00:22 pm »

Quote
Any thoughts... should we wait or do you think the quality of MFDB will still be significantly better?

Thanks,
Randal
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Randal, I think that it's all about your style of shooting, your subject matter and the media where your final image will appear.

I've been going through a similar dilemma myself.  I think that my motivation to move to MFD comes in part from a desire to get back to the format that was my bread and butter in film and the look of those MF lenses. But admittedly it is also sort of feeling (ego?) that I need to have "the best" available.  While some day I'm sure I will also offer MFD, right now, the 1Ds II is serving me very well (advertising, corporate).  

I remind myself that esteemed fashion photographer Melvin Sokolsky was shooting incredible double-truck fashion spreads with the humble 4.5MP Canon 1D when it came out and is now working (as far as I know) with the 1DsII.
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jklotz

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Go MFDB? or wait to see what Canon's got
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2007, 08:56:13 am »

Quote
Any thoughts... should we wait or do you think the quality of MFDB will still be significantly better?
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Randal, I'd recomend renting or demo-ing a MF system. Reading posts, brochures and spec sheets is great, but is not going to tell you a tenth  of what putting your hands on one would.
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