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Author Topic: ImagePrint, ColorBurst, Onyx Oh My!  (Read 13597 times)

GamutGirl

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« on: March 27, 2007, 03:05:57 pm »

We have a small print department at our school with all Epson printers: 1 9600, 1 7600, 1 4000, and 2 3800s. We are getting a brand new server and wanted to install RIP software to manage our jobs. Which RIP package would allow us to run all our printers from a single server at the same time?
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Greg_E

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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2007, 04:10:16 pm »

Onyx will (production house), but it will cost extra. Evolution will, but will cost extra. I think Studio Print might be the only one that can run multiple printers from the single purchase price. I'm not sure about Colorburst, but I think they only have single printer systems.

You could check and see what kind of price you can get the Onyx Production House for, they might throw a discount for educational use. Also check with Digifab and see what kind of discount they can work for the multi printer version of the Evolution RIP. You might also contact Jim Doyle at http://www.shadesofpaper.com about StudioPrint and see what he can do for a price and to confirm that it will work with multiple printers. Tell him I sent you  

All of these may require owning a spectrophotometer to properly set them up, you might also need ICC profiles too. You'll need CMYK profiles for all of these RIPs. If you have a spectro, I can help you out with the profiles (you measure, I build, no money). You might also want to buy the RIP with some color management software. I know Xrite has educational discounts, but I don't remember how much of a discount.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 04:12:51 pm by Greg_E »
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Kirk Gittings

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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2007, 04:25:54 pm »

Imageprint will charge for each printer. It will be pricey.
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Thomas Krüger

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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2007, 04:45:13 pm »

What about Qimage?
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marcsitkin

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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2007, 05:39:47 pm »

Wasatch Poster print will run 4 at one time with no extra license fee.
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Mussi_Spectraflow

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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2007, 07:35:09 pm »

I think your going to have to get additional printer licenses for most RIP's. IP varies quite a bit by printer type as far as pricing goes, colorburst is similar. Onyx postershop gives you 2 printers by default. I believe the better question though is what do you expect from the RIP. For simplicity I would say IP, they even give you a huge selection of profiles that are very good. Colorburst is also very simple to setup, and their canned profiles tend to be quite good. Onyx gives you a bit more flexability, and controll over the profile creation process. Are you going to use this for proofing at all? Is there going to be a person who can oversee the jobs sent to the RIP, and be resposible for knowing how to use it.  Are you printing CMYK design work, or photographic output? Those questions I think will be more helpfull in pointing you towards the right RIP. I've worked with all of the RIP's you've mentioned so let me know if I can be of any help.

Julian Mussi
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GamutGirl

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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2007, 11:14:30 pm »

We mainly print student work which consist of Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign/Quark files. It's a mix of photos, fine art prints, posters, graphic design projects, and fashion art pieces. Our print sizes include 8.5x11, 13x19, 18x24, 24x36, 40x60. We print on Epson brand matte, lustre, glossy, and watercolor papers. There are 4 of us printing to the various printers at the same time. Once a student submits a job, one of us goes over the file to make sure it's the correct size to the paper type they want, checks the rest of the image, and then prints directly from whatever application is used to open the file. I feel our current workflow is inefficient and could be improved if we had a RIP.

We'd like to setup a system where we can queue up a bunch of prints and just let them print while we move on to the next job. Right now its a bit hard to do since we print directly to the printers, which tie up our machines. We've had our Epsons for a few years now and noticed a slight color shift in all our prints. We'd like to compensate for this by creating profiles. We already own an older GretagMacBeth spectrometer but don't know how to use it to profile our papers. Its an older model that uses the parallel port. We're hoping to use it with whatever RIP we decide to go with. I recently spoke to a ColorBurst rep and was told we may still be able to use it by attaching a parallel-to-USB convertor, but he didn't think one server could run all our printers at the same time.

We are expecting to get a new quad-core IBM server running Windows Server 2003 to run whatever RIP server we plan to get. Unfortunately, we don't have the funds to get another machine, so all our printers have to run off this monster.

Our goal is to have a complete, standardized, color-managed workflow that provides consistent, high quality prints for our students at an extremely affordable price. Instead of having our students go to Kinkos or the expensive photo printshop down the street, we'd like them to come to us.

Thanks in advance for any recommendations.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 11:26:29 pm by GamutGirl »
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Greg_E

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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2007, 10:23:00 am »

If you buy a RIP that can handle Postscript images, then you wouldn't need to open them in an application to print them. Just open the image in the RIP and print (better efficiency).

I'm not sure what spectrometer you have that connects on a par. port, could you take a look at it to find the name or model number (or even take a picture of it)? Most of the new RIPs will only support a few devices, those being the Gretag/Xrite i1 pro and the now dead Xrite Pulse, so you may need to buy a new one.
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GamutGirl

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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2007, 11:46:57 am »

The spectrometer we have is an old GretagMacbeth SpectroScan Transmission with a 25-pin serial (not parallel, like I had initially thought) connector. I asked around and the machine was used only ONCE, because the entire process was difficult to perform.

I spoke to our local vendor and it seems the newer version of ImagePrint uses their own setup/system to handle postscript files since ColorByte didn't license the postscript engine from Adobe. Can anyone else verify this?

ColorBurst on the other hand does license the adobe postscript engine for their software, but the cost seems like it may be higher and it might not be able to handle all our printers on one machine.
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Greg_E

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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2007, 12:18:16 pm »

OK, the Spectroscan will work just fine with a 25 pin serial to USB adapter. You might need to get a 25 pin to 9 pin serial cable, and then the USB adapter. I have a Spectroscan/Spectrolino and it works fine on the USB adapter. The question will be... Does the RIP you buy work with it? I know you can make the Evolution RIP work with it by manually entering the data for ink limits and linearization (if it does work in automatic mode). I assume that Onyx Production House will work with it in automatic mode too, but it's just a guess.

You can use the Spectroscan with Xrite/GMB Profile Maker Pro and Xrite/Monaco Profiler to make ICC profiles, though you might have to use the free utility from Xrite caller Colorport to make the targets and measure them. You may have an old version of Profile Maker Pro around, so it might be worth upgrading. The entire process isn't really that difficult, but with the Spectroscan it is going to be long. The Spectroscan is very slow!
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Mussi_Spectraflow

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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2007, 12:19:18 pm »

Quote
The spectrometer we have is an old GretagMacbeth SpectroScan Transmission with a 25-pin serial (not parallel, like I had initially thought) connector. I asked around and the machine was used only ONCE, because the entire process was difficult to perform.

I spoke to our local vendor and it seems the newer version of ImagePrint uses their own setup/system to handle postscript files since ColorByte didn't license the postscript engine from Adobe. Can anyone else verify this?

ColorBurst on the other hand does license the adobe postscript engine for their software, but the cost seems like it may be higher and it might not be able to handle all our printers on one machine.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109134\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think Image Print is ideal for postscrip, especially the support for printing directly from an application. It will work but it's less robust than the options from others. I think you should look at onyx..it's a bit more complex to configure but in a multi user environment with multiple printers, it will offer you a robust solution. ITs very scalable, and runs solid. The server should be able to handle the RIP no sweat. You could also look at EFI color proof XF, although this is more of a proofing RIP. You also MAY need to upgrade your spectro, most RIP's offer a discounted rate when purchased with their RIP. I'd be carefull at this point about price, I understand that one option may save you money in the short term but in the long run may hinder your ability to grow and may cost you more money when you have to add new printers, or options.

Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
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GamutGirl

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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2007, 12:54:43 pm »

We do not necessarily need to print from applications, like we currently do. If there is another way that's faster or more efficient, then I'm all for it. Our biggest problem right now is inconsistency with color. What prints out from our 9600 might look different from our 7600. So, some people will "pick" a printer and stick to it causing a pile up of jobs while people wait for the "good" printer to finish printing.

I recently spoke to a neighboring school using ColorBurst and after speaking to them, ColorBurst is now off my list. There seems to be a 4gig file limit when using the software that messes up prints over 40" long and 2880dpi. When this type of job goes thru, weird issues like having the job suddenly stop or printing out the first and last sections of the job come out. Also, ColorBurst doesn't seem to queue jobs. It uses the Windows spooler to handle jobs. So, it may take 2 hours to RIP a file and tie up our computer while the jobs get sent through.

I'll look into Onyx and the EFI solutions.

Thanks again.
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Greg_E

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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2007, 12:06:42 pm »

Just one more comment that I thought of... If the other people thought that making an RGB profile for your printers was too complex, than they are going to go crazy with the complexity of building new paper configurations in something like the Onyx RIPs.
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GamutGirl

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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2007, 12:38:50 pm »

Quote
Just one more comment that I thought of... If the other people thought that making an RGB profile for your printers was too complex, than they are going to go crazy with the complexity of building new paper configurations in something like the Onyx RIPs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109400\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This was 4 years ago when the manager didn't know what he was doing (he's now gone, btw). I'm confident we can be trained if the proper instructor was present. The last guy sent to us was a mathematics professor who researched color management on the side. He spent half the time reading the manual to us and playing around with the software trying to get it to work.

I've sent inquiries to Onyx to see if their system is right for us. After reading over their website and researching other people's experiences with the product, I'm hoping Onyx will be a viable solution for us.
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Mussi_Spectraflow

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« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2007, 01:07:35 pm »

Quote
This was 4 years ago when the manager didn't know what he was doing (he's now gone, btw). I'm confident we can be trained if the proper instructor was present. The last guy sent to us was a mathematics professor who researched color management on the side. He spent half the time reading the manual to us and playing around with the software trying to get it to work.

I've sent inquiries to Onyx to see if their system is right for us. After reading over their website and researching other people's experiences with the product, I'm hoping Onyx will be a viable solution for us.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109403\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

     I think that printing from the application is the easy way to go. With a program like Onyx, it installs virtual printers so you simply turn off color management in the application, and print to a virtual printer that will have several quick sets for specifying paper types and sizes. All of the color management is handled on the RIP side. This makes things much easier for the end user. Onyx also has a good job management  system, and lots of controll over setting priority workflows and job grouping. Greg also brings up a good point. Version 7 is very wizard driven as far as creating media types goes...still it's not the most intuitive system, even for someone well versed in basic profile creation. For example setting good initial ink limits is crucial, and can be a little tricky. You will want to finding the point where you achieve max chroma rather than just looking at max density. To really get the best results out of the RIP be prepared to spend a good deal of time figuring out it's nuances.  

Julian Mussi
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Chris_Brown

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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2007, 03:27:49 pm »

Quote
I spoke to our local vendor and it seems the newer version of ImagePrint uses their own setup/system to handle postscript files since ColorByte didn't license the postscript engine from Adobe. Can anyone else verify this?[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You are correct. ColorByte produces ICC printer profiles to be used by IP (ImagePrint). They are available for both the Mac and Windows platform. You can browse them [a href=\"http://www.colorbytesoftware.com/downloads.htm]here.[/url] They provide printer profiles for all printers supported by the ImagePrint RIP. They are also optimized for specific viewing conditions (i.e., tungsten, fluorescent, daylight light sources).

You can also make your own printer profiles and use them with IP. There has been much discussion about the quality of ColorByte's profiles here, and the general consensus is that they are as good as can be made, but may respond to certain saturated colors differently than home-brewed profiles. It comes down to a matter of opinion.

The downside to using only ColorByte's profiles is that they make them for specific papers. If the paper you like is not offered in their free library, then you either make your own or pay them to make one. As paper sources continue to proliferate, they tend to stay behind the curve, not always offering the latest paper profile for a specific printer.

IP runs over USB or ethenet equally well. I use ethernet and find it's very flexible in my workflow. ColorByte prices the program based on the machine and how many machines you have. The cost to support an Epson 3800 is much less than the cost to support a 9800. RIP'ing to two printers cost more than to one. IP is not cheap. No RIP is, though. If you are interested in the program, contact ColorByte directly for a quote. A reseller will simply add up the cost for each printer without regard for the possibility of a quantity discount.

No, I don't work for ColorByte Software. I bought it when it was the only RIP available for OS X that ran over ethernet.

Regarding Postscript functionality, what they make provides excellent results. I typically produce .ps files from InDesign or Illustrator and IP handles them flawlessly. It also prints high-rez PDF files, embedded with ICC profiles, very well. The PostScript option adds to the cost of the basic RIP.

The stongsuit to IP is its ability to print B&W images beautifully. It can also provide "split tone" images where, for example, shadow values of an image print warm and highlight values print cool. It also takes into account any inkset color bias when printing B&W so that there is no unwanted tint in the print.

ColorByte employs the use of dongles with all their software. This means you plug in the dongle to a single computer and print from only that machine -- all files must be sent to it for RIP'ing -- which are then sent to the chosen printer. I use an old Mac G4 tower dedicated to printing and it runs without a hitch.

IP uses "hot folder" (or "watched folder") technology, which would be required in your printing environment. All files to be printed are copied to this hot folder, which resides on the RIP computer, and when certain conditions are met (e.g., time, number of files, etc.) IP goes to work and prints the file(s). The printing conditions and layout specifications are set up in "AutoPrint", an accessory program that comes with IP.

ColorByte has never been good at User Manuals, and IP is no different. The activity on the Yahoo!Groups forum is constantly active as people search for answers. It is monitored by ColorByte tech support but they don't respond unless minsinformation is posted.

I hope this helps.
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Greg_E

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« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2007, 05:00:20 pm »

Well, before you run down the course of using a RIP, you might just want to revisit making profiles for each printer. That should get the results to be abpout the same across the 76/9600 and 4000. The 3800 is going to be different because of the newer inks that is uses. The Spectroscan is still a very good quality tool, so it might be worth looking into finding the software and giving it a try.

And it's good to here that Postershop has a wizard driven system in version 7, the last version I did anything with was version 6, and custom paper settings were a very long and drawn out process. But in reality the Production House version of the Onyx Postershop RIP was designed for what you need to do, so it would probably be the best choice.
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GamutGirl

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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2007, 02:33:29 am »

Quote
Well, before you run down the course of using a RIP, you might just want to revisit making profiles for each printer. That should get the results to be abpout the same across the 76/9600 and 4000. The 3800 is going to be different because of the newer inks that is uses. The Spectroscan is still a very good quality tool, so it might be worth looking into finding the software and giving it a try.

And it's good to here that Postershop has a wizard driven system in version 7, the last version I did anything with was version 6, and custom paper settings were a very long and drawn out process. But in reality the Production House version of the Onyx Postershop RIP was designed for what you need to do, so it would probably be the best choice.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109461\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What are the major differences among the different versions of Onyx besides price? I was looking at both Production House and Poster Shop. Unfortunately, I have yet to receive word back from either the company or the local vendor.

With IP, we would need to have custom ICC profiles made every few years to account for color shifts associated with the aging of our printers. I know that after 3 years of continuous use, our Epson printers all exhibit a slight magenta shift. We print to 5 different types of papers on each of our 5 different printers. Altogether, making custom profiles for each paper/printer combo would add to the overall cost of ownership.

ColorBurst is offering a special right now where you buy the system and get a spectrophotometer for $800. Unfortunately, I've confirmed that we would need to purchase additional computers to run several licenses of ColorBurst to run ALL our printers simultaneously, thus adding more to the overall cost again.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 02:34:19 am by GamutGirl »
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Greg_E

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« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2007, 11:50:22 am »

The last time I checked into it, the Production House version was for mulitple printers connected to a single RIP computer. When you finally do get a hold of someone, they should be able to send you a demo. And I'm pretty sure that it should work directly with your Spectroscan.
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Chris_Brown

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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2007, 09:38:47 am »

Quote
With IP, we would need to have custom ICC profiles made every few years to account for color shifts associated with the aging of our printers. I know that after 3 years of continuous use, our Epson printers all exhibit a slight magenta shift. We print to 5 different types of papers on each of our 5 different printers. Altogether, making custom profiles for each paper/printer combo would add to the overall cost of ownership.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I assume this is due to print head wear and not a drift in ink formulation. How often do you replace your print heads?

If you choose not to profile the printer yourself, use an ICC profiling service such as [a href=\"http://cathysprofiles.com/]Cathy's Profiles[/url] or Digital Dog.
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