Frustration With Sinar

[pss]

Yes, It's been a lot of discussion about all this Hy6 thing the last months. I was very interestedin the new Hy6, but I ended up selling all my rollei  stuff for a month ago. I sincerely think the whole sinar/leaf/rollei project is a disaster that's only confusing photographers.
We need to thing about what we need for our job and try to get away from this crazy marketed world.
Personally I've decided to go back to my beautiful 503CW and a fantastic new purchased Contax 645. The Hy6 is dead for me now. If it happens one day, well then we'll see...

Samuel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

until a camera is in the market and proven it is just a fun thing to have a discussion about....i sold my rollei stuff a couple of months ago....i need something to shoot with..now..that works....i still haven't given up on the Hy6...yet...but as an actual tool it won't be interesting for me until it has shipped in quantities and has proven to be stable....until then it is a toy....

[Mark_Tucker]

until a camera is in the market and proven it is just a fun thing to have a discussion about....i sold my rollei stuff a couple of months ago....i need something to shoot with..now..that works....i still haven't given up on the Hy6...yet...but as an actual tool it won't be interesting for me until it has shipped in quantities and has proven to be stable....until then it is a toy....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Truer words have never been spoken.

All this transition to digital has been very complicated. We all know that. When I discuss these issues, my allegiance is always to the photographers' perspective, and what serves him the best. While it's probably human nature to be excited about something coming down the pike, it's also a good reminder that there's money on the table here, and no one wants a surprise in the middle of a job.

I have learned the hard way -- it's best to stay at least one, if not two, steps off of the bleeding edge. As advanced as this stuff is, in the big picture, it's still in its infancy. It's best, in my opinion, to only buy gear that's had at least a year of solid shipping, in quantity, so the bugs and kinks can be made known. No one wants to be a beta tester (any more).

I cannot understand how these companies announce a product, and then, months later, decide to get around to a marketing program. Medium format seems to be especially keen to this behavior; it's almost like the only thing that matters to them is designing the product, and not selling it, supporting it, or communicating to customers about the details. Thus, as a result, a track record of distrust is developed, and forums like this pop up, where truth and actual performance of a product can be discussed. Sad that it's that way, but it is. While these company reps come on here, and while they're nice people, still, it does not justify the backassward mentality of many of the companies they represent. Again, to everyone, buyer beware. If you think there's frustration now, just wait until the camera ships. If you've got jobs to be shot NOW, the best approach is to look backward, to what's actually being used today, and what has a solid track record.

Just one opinion.

[Mort54]

My goodness people, I think we're being a little harsh here.

Perhaps most importantly, I have confidence that they are *accurate*, coming directly from Sinar from what appears to be  a knowledgeable Sinar employee. 
Brad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108433\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Since I opened this can of worms, and am now feeling a little guilty for doing so, I should probably keep my big mouth shut :-) But I'll chance a few more comments.

The only answer that struck me as incorrect is the one about the Early Bird special being available in the US. I've been told twice now by SinarBron that this isn't the case. So as far as I know, that answer is incorrect. I pointed this out on their forum, but I haven't checked back today to see if they responded. The whole early bird thing may be moot now anyway, since general availability is supposedly scheduled for June, only three months away, so surely I can hold off any purchase decision for another three months. If I had needed a system last year, it would have been a much more important consideration for me.

Sinar should be applauded for providing their Hy6 faq (despite my earlier comments), since there is a huge amount of interest in the product. However, I still feel the implementation of this faq, and the general roll-out of information, leaves a lot to be desired. But I've already belabored that point, and Thierry has responded and indicated that more comprehensive information is coming as soon as possible. Fair enough. I would suggest that Andrea consolidate the main questions and answers so far into a single downloadable .pdf, since the current faq format is a little tedious and there are a good bit of duplicate questions and answers.

[mattlap2]

The only answer that struck me as incorrect is the one about the Early Bird special being available in the US. I've been told twice now by SinarBron that this isn't the case. So as far as I know, that answer is incorrect. I pointed this out on their forum, but I haven't checked back today to see if they responded. The whole early bird thing may be moot now anyway, since general availability is supposedly scheduled for June, only three months away, so surely I can hold off any purchase decision for another three months. If I had needed a system last year, it would have been a much more important consideration for me.

There is definitely no early bird special at the moment.   We did not participate in the early bird program that was promoted elsewhere in the 4th quarter of 2006.   We decided to not participate for a number of reasons.   The biggest reason is that since Hy6 pricing had not been established yet, Sinar Bron  did not feel comfortable setting a price for an upgrade.    The company felt we would have to set the price artificially high and would do a disservice to our customers.

Sinar had only become the distributor of Rollei in October.   There were a number of factors that delayed our pricing on Rollei.   Quickly changing currencies, the previous importer dumping stock at artificially low prices, and trying to figure out how we would establish a dealer network vs existing dealers.  

Sinar Bron has rarely followed the promos elsewhere in the world on either Sinar or Broncolor.   Typically we negotiate our own promotions based on the needs of the US market.   We are lucky enough to be larger than most distributors and can do so.

Hope that cleared up some of the confusion on the Rollei Earlybird Promo in the US.

Thanks,

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com

[pss]

There is definitely no early bird special at the moment.   We did not participate in the early bird program that was promoted elsewhere in the 4th quarter of 2006.   We decided to not participate for a number of reasons.   The biggest reason is that since Hy6 pricing had not been established yet, Sinar Bron  did not feel comfortable setting a price for an upgrade.    The company felt we would have to set the price artificially high and would do a disservice to our customers.

Sinar had only become the distributor of Rollei in October.   There were a number of factors that delayed our pricing on Rollei.   Quickly changing currencies, the previous importer dumping stock at artificially low prices, and trying to figure out how we would establish a dealer network vs existing dealers.   

Sinar Bron has rarely followed the promos elsewhere in the world on either Sinar or Broncolor.   Typically we negotiate our own promotions based on the needs of the US market.   We are lucky enough to be larger than most distributors and can do so.

Hope that cleared up some of the confusion on the Rollei Earlybird Promo in the US.

Thanks,

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108496\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

so what would the price of a 6008/emotion75 and 6008/emotion22 be right now? all of these items are available and should make it very easy for someone interested in the HY6 to step up (or over) once the new body ships...

[eronald]

Truer words have never been spoken.

I cannot understand how these companies announce a product, and then, months later, decide to get around to a marketing program. Medium format seems to be especially keen to this behavior; it's almost like the only thing that matters to them is designing the product, and not selling it, supporting it, or communicating to customers about the details. Thus, as a result, a track record of distrust is developed, and forums like this pop up, where truth and actual performance of a product can be discussed. Sad that it's that way, but it is. While these company reps come on here, and while they're nice people, still, it does not justify the backassward mentality of many of the companies they represent. Again, to everyone, buyer beware. If you think there's frustration now, just wait until the camera ships. If you've got jobs to be shot NOW, the best approach is to look backward, to what's actually being used today, and what has a solid track record.

Just one opinion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108449\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark,

 You do slug quite hard, I must say !

 What's happening here is that the companies are "preannouncing". A company hears Kodak will produce an 80MP chip, maybe they've never seen one, there are no samples, but they still announce digital back built around this paper product. As release date draws near, their customers will then be enticed by the marketing campaign to accept whatever *really* comes down the engineering chute. Maybe the 80 MP chip is so expensive that only 100 can ever be made at a bearable loss ? Then an alternative 60MP chip will be trotted out for the *real profitable* sales that bring in the money.

 Which explains why the (condensed) tech specs come first, and then the marketing plan: The marketing plan is built around the real product which can be shipped and will make money. Also, haven't you noticed that sample images are always delivered at the last minute ? If chips were sampling, preliminary imagery would come much sooner

 Pre-announcing is a predatory practice which got IBM in bad trouble many years ago and had them signing a consent decree in the end. In this sense, the digital back guys are following in the footsteps of a master.

Edmund

PS - this "preannouncement" rant DOES NOT APPLY TO SINAR because they showed engineering samples, detailed specs etc of *exactly* what they will sell.

Edmund

[thsinar]

Dear Samuel,

I honestly would like to know from you in what and why the whole Hy6 project is a disaster for you?

Sinar has presented this new camera 6x6 system during the last Photokina: it was presented as a project in its final stages and promised to be available during the 2nd half of 2007.

I am truely asking myself what can possibly make one react like you and criticize a camera or companies involved in the developement of this project.

Nothing has been said which was not true, no false market introduction has been given nor has any wrong promise(s) been made, any single question asked on this forum has been and still is answered.

Don't you think that the "crazy marketed world" you are mentioning is created by the very same trumpeting and speaking loud about non-available products? And that those informing honestly and at a pace in accordance with the project's evolution should be given some credit for not misleading anybody?

Thanks for looking at it from another perspective.

Best regards,
Thierry

Yes, It's been a lot of discussion about all this Hy6 thing the last months. I was very interestedin the new Hy6, but I ended up selling all my rollei  stuff for a month ago. I sincerely think the whole sinar/leaf/rollei project is a disaster that's only confusing photographers.
We need to thing about what we need for our job and try to get away from this crazy marketed world.
Personally I've decided to go back to my beautiful 503CW and a fantastic new purchased Contax 645. The Hy6 is dead for me now. If it happens one day, well then we'll see...

Samuel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

Dear Brad,

Thank you on behalf of those all making a lot of efforts at Sinar!

We truely and honestly do our best, trying as a first aim not to mislead. I know the person behind the answers given in the tread on Sinar's homepage for working with him since 15 years: I can assure you that the information provided is absolutely accurate and true.

I am personnaly checking on a daily basis and while one can certainly not say that Sinar is giving an overwhelming amount of information, all questions are answered in a precise, accurate and true way.

Thanks again for your support.

Thierry

My goodness people, I think we're being a little harsh here.

I was grateful that Thierry suggested the forum to Sinar HQ, and they went ahead and set it up.  I know of no other company that has extended such a hand to its customer base, particularly on an unannounced product.

Thierry said that all questions would be answered within a business day, and this is basically what I have observed.  I don't know if the folks who are claiming not all the questions were answered have checked back the following day, but on those occasions where I have seen an unanswered question, I checked back the next day and found that Andrea had answered every question.

Then complaints surfaced about the answers being "coy superficial marketing speak", "cryptic" and "cold and aloof".  I encourage folks to log on and see for themselves.  In my opinion, the answers are short, clear, and professional.  Perhaps most importantly, I have confidence that they are *accurate*, coming directly from Sinar from what appears to be  a knowledgeable Sinar employee.  (Let us also not assume that everyone's first language is English...)

I have no relationship with Sinar.  I just read this thread and felt that we hadn't been very fair, or even accurate in the criticism that was leveled  (somewhat the opposite, in fact).

Would I like to see a more conventional and complete release of information on a system that I too am considering purchasing?  Yes, of course.  The "Early Bird Special" program appears to be a bit of a fiasco at least for US-based customers, if reports in this thread are accurate-- of course people should voice their opinions about this.

But I also hope we can also give credit where it is due, rather than inaccurately (IMHO) criticizing the efforts Sinar is making.  Some of their folks at least, seem to be going out of their way to keep us informed and connected with what must be a difficult and complex process.  I'd like to say 'thank you' to them for that.

Just my 2 cents,
Brad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108433\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

Dear Hans,

The FAQ is scheduled for a whole month, ending March 31st. Thereafter it is planed to have a selection of the most important questions/answers to be summarized and published officially by Sinar.

I shall myself make sure that this will be published as well here on this forum.

Best regards,
Thierry

I would suggest that Andrea consolidate the main questions and answers so far into a single downloadable .pdf, since the current faq format is a little tedious and there are a good bit of duplicate questions and answers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108462\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[mattlap2]

so what would the price of a 6008/emotion75 and 6008/emotion22 be right now? all of these items are available and should make it very easy for someone interested in the HY6 to step up (or over) once the new body ships...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Currently we have priced the Rollei 6008 Kit extremely low.   There is no upgrade path at these prices.   I am sure there will be a bundle price for a back with a Hy6 when the Hy6 finally ships.


Currently the Price for a

6008 AF kit w/ 80mm lens and WL finder is $3587.00

An Emotion 75 is $32,000 and the Rollei 6008 Interface kit is $2397.00

An Emotion 22 is $21,000 and the Rollei 6008 Interface kit is $2397.00

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com

[samuel_js]

Well, I said very clear to Sinar that my intentions were to go Hy6. I wanted to know prices and digital/film options. They said they would call me. Never heard from them... I choose to go Hasselblad instead. Everything they do is clear and transparent and they're here in Sweden.
I think it's very sad that the beautifull 6008 will be difussed into three different cameras now.
I wish it was a Rollei Hy6 with open optinos for the digital back. It was a short beautiful dream and now I woke up and feel very dissapointed... That's all.

Best Regards
Samuel

Dear Samuel,

I honestly would like to know from you in what and why the whole Hy6 project is a disaster for you?

Sinar has presented this new camera 6x6 system during the last Photokina: it was presented as a project in its final stages and promised to be available during the 2nd half of 2007.

I am truely asking myself what can possibly make one react like you and criticize a camera or companies involved in the developement of this project.

Nothing has been said which was not true, no false market introduction has been given nor has any wrong promise(s) been made, any single question asked on this forum has been and still is answered.

Don't you think that the "crazy marketed world" you are mentioning is created by the very same trumpeting and speaking loud about non-available products? And that those informing honestly and at a pace in accordance with the project's evolution should be given some credit for not misleading anybody?

Thanks for looking at it from another perspective.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108535\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Mort54]

There is definitely no early bird special at the moment.....Hope that cleared up some of the confusion on the Rollei Earlybird Promo in the US.

Thanks,

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108496\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Matt. Thanks for clarifying the issue, and sorry I caused such a ruckus with this thread. Michael Gray and I have been in touch several times, and he also passed the Early Bird information on to me. I expect to have my request for quote to Jack Strobel by COB tomorrow (or at least before the end of the day). I'll include any remaining questions I have to him at that time as well (mostly having to do with maintenance, repair, and warranty issues). I'll CC Michael as well, since I have a proposal to make as an alternative to the Early Bird program.

Thanks again,
Hans.

[thsinar]

Dear Samuel,

I don't get you clearly and there seems to be a confusion:

- The Rollei 6008 will remain the 6008 and not be split in 3 cameras or brands! And the 6008 is as open a system for digital backs as is Hasselblad with its 503 or Contax or any other brand.

- The Hy6 is a new camera system: it is a new platform "open" for 2 MFDB's, while the H3D is not open. And last but not at all least, it can accept almost ALL accessories and lenses (AF or not) from the 6008: so far I could understand, the H3D has not at all this possbility.

- Sinar distributor in Sweden: Molander in Stokholm are a serious company. If they did not contact you (which I shall check directly with them), it is because they do not yet have any prices for a camera which is not yet available. I understand your urge and need to buy urgently and in this situation you certainly made the best choice by purchasing what was available then.

All I wish is that one does not put blame on people who do their work in a professional way or that one misleads by "accusing" a camera which has not even been launched officially to be a "disaster": that's simply not fair and not true. Let the camera being launched and marketed as we planed and informed, with all information available for all, including prices, then I could understand and take any critic about it, negative as well as positive.

I hope you understand my point.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Well, I said very clear to Sinar that my intentions were to go Hy6. I wanted to know prices and digital/film options. They said they would call me. Never heard from them... I choose to go Hasselblad instead. Everything they do is clear and transparent and they're here in Sweden.
I think it's very sad that the beautifull 6008 will be difussed into three different cameras now.
I wish it was a Rollei Hy6 with open optinos for the digital back. It was a short beautiful dream and now I woke up and feel very dissapointed... That's all.

Best Regards
Samuel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108621\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[bradleygibson]

Sinar should be applauded for providing their Hy6 faq (despite my earlier comments), since there is a huge amount of interest in the product. However, I still feel the implementation of this faq, and the general roll-out of information, leaves a lot to be desired.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108462\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi, Mort,
I can understand your frustration with the Early Bird program, getting ping-ponged back and forth from Sinar HQ and SinarBronUSA.  I think your above comment is completely fair--sorry if I contributed to any of those feelings of guilt!  

Thank you on behalf of those all making a lot of efforts at Sinar!

We truely and honestly do our best, trying as a first aim not to mislead.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108538\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi, Thierry,

You're welcome.  I think you have a very exciting product on your hands, and everyone would love to know more.  Let's hope it is every bit as good as the promises suggest, but we'll have to be patient to know for sure.

Thanks as well for the notification that the Sinar FAQ will only be open through March 31.  I've posted a few more questions there, just before the deadline.

Best regards to you both,
Brad

[samuel_js]

Hi,
The Hy6 is a 6x6 camera right? Why a 6x4,5 magazine before a 6x6? The 6x6 magazine will be launched later they say... For me, the 6x6 magazine is very  important. This is one thing I don't understand. Why should I buy a 6x6 camera without 6x6 mag? A waist level finder doesn't  have the same effect on 645, well that's my opinion...
Hasselblad is not a closed system. The H3D is. (You still have H2 and V system wide open). My digital choice is Phase One because the quality is fantastic an of course Capture One. The Hy6 will be more closed for sure. And we are talking about the same price range than Hasselblad? As I said before, I think the battle is already lost and there's no camera yet... And then we have Mamiya. No comment...
What I ment about the 6008 is the Hy6 being the evolution of the 6008. And I, as many, wanted this evolution to become a Rollei Hy6 "Open system".

Thierry, I think you do a fantastic job in this forum, far better than the dealers do (no comments about Molanders). And I will be looking at the Hy6 whe it comes out, but for now I'm done, really.

Best Regards
Samuel

Dear Samuel,

I don't get you clearly and there seems to be a confusion:

- The Rollei 6008 will remain the 6008 and not be split in 3 cameras or brands! And the 6008 is as open a system for digital backs as is Hasselblad with its 503 or Contax or any other brand.

- The Hy6 is a new camera system: it is a new platform "open" for 2 MFDB's, while the H3D is not open. And last but not at all least, it can accept almost ALL accessories and lenses (AF or not) from the 6008: so far I could understand, the H3D has not at all this possbility.

- Sinar distributor in Sweden: Molander in Stokholm are a serious company. If they did not contact you (which I shall check directly with them), it is because they do not yet have any prices for a camera which is not yet available. I understand your urge and need to buy urgently and in this situation you certainly made the best choice by purchasing what was available then.

All I wish is that one does not put blame on people who do their work in a professional way or that one misleads by "accusing" a camera which has not even been launched officially to be a "disaster": that's simply not fair and not true. Let the camera being launched and marketed as we planed and informed, with all information available for all, including prices, then I could understand and take any critic about it, negative as well as positive.

I hope you understand my point.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108686\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[paulmoorestudio]

samuel, if you want a film camera in 6x6 I think you should have gone with the 6008, but remember this is a medium format DIGITAL back forum here, and I could care less if the hy6
ever came with a film back, I bought a 6008 a few years back and it has never seen film in it.
You think the sinar distributor in sweden is lame.. well check out the uk one if you want a laugh,
I was spoiled by sinarbron in the states, bill andrews, while vp of sales, ran a professional ship and knew the professional market, but here,.. ..I would be very surprised if anyone buys sinar in the uk.
I commend sinar for their vision and execution, but like me, find it difficult in the marketplace. I wish I had thierry as a sales rep.,I bet sinar wishes they could clone him. Regardless of the release date on the hy6, if it has the sinar badge on it when it is delivered you know you will be
able to depend on it. I am conifident that sinar will be part of my future as it has been in the past.
 
paul moore

[pss]

Dear Samuel,

I don't get you clearly and there seems to be a confusion:

- The Rollei 6008 will remain the 6008 and not be split in 3 cameras or brands! And the 6008 is as open a system for digital backs as is Hasselblad with its 503 or Contax or any other brand.

- The Hy6 is a new camera system: it is a new platform "open" for 2 MFDB's, while the H3D is not open. And last but not at all least, it can accept almost ALL accessories and lenses (AF or not) from the 6008: so far I could understand, the H3D has not at all this possbility.

- Sinar distributor in Sweden: Molander in Stokholm are a serious company. If they did not contact you (which I shall check directly with them), it is because they do not yet have any prices for a camera which is not yet available. I understand your urge and need to buy urgently and in this situation you certainly made the best choice by purchasing what was available then.

All I wish is that one does not put blame on people who do their work in a professional way or that one misleads by "accusing" a camera which has not even been launched officially to be a "disaster": that's simply not fair and not true. Let the camera being launched and marketed as we planed and informed, with all information available for all, including prices, then I could understand and take any critic about it, negative as well as positive.

I hope you understand my point.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108686\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hasselblad might still have an open system with the H1/2 but right after the H3D announcement came the (now taken back?) announcement that they would stop building H1/2s and of course no new lenses for H1/2.....and there aren't too many to begin with for that system....
that is besides the point that the battery problems of the H1/2 haven't even been fixed yet, but the camera is already being discontinued?
if you want the phase back (which i understand completely) i would consider the H system an uncertain choice.....especially since the manufacturer forces people to either go hasselblad or ....
if you have to have hasselblad, why not go with the HD31? all the advantages (on paper) and at least some certainty....

[samuel_js]

hasselblad might still have an open system with the H1/2 but right after the H3D announcement came the (now taken back?) announcement that they would stop building H1/2s and of course no new lenses for H1/2.....and there aren't too many to begin with for that system....
that is besides the point that the battery problems of the H1/2 haven't even been fixed yet, but the camera is already being discontinued?
if you want the phase back (which i understand completely) i would consider the H system an uncertain choice.....especially since the manufacturer forces people to either go hasselblad or ....
if you have to have hasselblad, why not go with the HD31? all the advantages (on paper) and at least some certainty....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108977\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, the H3D is a choice. I sold my H1 as well. Right now I do everything with a 503CW and a Contax 645. But still on film. I think maybe the best choice is to wait and see. How will PhaseOne respond to the Hy6?

/Samuel

[Geoffrey]

FWIW, .02 from another perspective. Its been interesting watching Leica deal with some of these issues of marketing. communication and open development with the DMR and the M8.Watching them change from a discrete and proud small quality manufacturer of lenses and cameras into a new type of company, with a nimble open organization dealing with a lot of electronic issues has been just fascinating. Along the way there are:

- the consumer expectations that they ought to be just as good as Canon and Nikon in their delivery of prduct, pricing, information, etc. That's a bit tough for a small company.

- also expectations that the product should be flawless - a reasonable one, but one which truthfully should be noted doesn't happen too often these days, and even less with smaller production companies making sophisticated product. We tend to forget soem of the Canon/Nikon mistakes of the past.

Finally, there is the joy of their consumer base, with very little tolerance for mistakes, and (in part, due to the 'net) is pretty hard edged about any mistakes. There something about email... that just can slide to the negative pretty quickly.

One example - Leica relaeased by mistake a firmware upgrade for the M8 for about 10 minutes on their site, and quickly withdrew it. Within 24 hours, it was widely distributed, compared, critiqued and discussed broadly. They were of course shocked at the speed with which this happened.

The long andshort of it is that almost anything Leica (read Rolle here too...) does as they  adjust to this new world can get them a lot of grief if they make the slightest hickup.

So imagine - a world with fast communication, high expectations, low tolerance for mistakes, and complex product. Its no surprise then that Sinar decides to communicate with a very measured tone in their message. If I were they, and watching what happens out here in the consumer frontier, I'd tread very cautiously as well.  

Sure, we'd like more information - but lets remember - this is a camera body, and a revamping of an existing product line. This isn't a totally new system from scratch. The lenses exist, new ones are probably a pretty sure bet (same manuf, same quality levels). The backs exist.

So from this point of view, I'm willing to cut them some slack and be a bit patient. I have every expectation they will deliver. I only hope they can do well enough within the US to get some real distribution and street presence.      

Geoff

[thsinar]

Geoffrey,

thank you for your understanding of a situation which is pretty much like you describe it: giving information out to an eager market, this information then spreading at light speed (literally, when speaking about internet), one has to be very cautious about the veracity of this information.

Therefore ONLY facts can be given, and that only after verifications with different sources. Even then, with all these checks, it still can happen that one or the other thing look a bit different in the real world.

Be however sure that Sinar is willing to inform fully about this new product in a short while, beside all the information already given here on LLF and in different treads.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

FWIW, .02 from another perspective. Its been interesting watching Leica deal with some of these issues of marketing. communication and open development with the DMR and the M8.Watching them change from a discrete and proud small quality manufacturer of lenses and cameras into a new type of company, with a nimble open organization dealing with a lot of electronic issues has been just fascinating. Along the way there are:

- the consumer expectations that they ought to be just as good as Canon and Nikon in their delivery of prduct, pricing, information, etc. That's a bit tough for a small company.

- also expectations that the product should be flawless - a reasonable one, but one which truthfully should be noted doesn't happen too often these days, and even less with smaller production companies making sophisticated product. We tend to forget soem of the Canon/Nikon mistakes of the past.

Finally, there is the joy of their consumer base, with very little tolerance for mistakes, and (in part, due to the 'net) is pretty hard edged about any mistakes. There something about email... that just can slide to the negative pretty quickly.

One example - Leica relaeased by mistake a firmware upgrade for the M8 for about 10 minutes on their site, and quickly withdrew it. Within 24 hours, it was widely distributed, compared, critiqued and discussed broadly. They were of course shocked at the speed with which this happened.

The long andshort of it is that almost anything Leica (read Rolle here too...) does as they  adjust to this new world can get them a lot of grief if they make the slightest hickup.

So imagine - a world with fast communication, high expectations, low tolerance for mistakes, and complex product. Its no surprise then that Sinar decides to communicate with a very measured tone in their message. If I were they, and watching what happens out here in the consumer frontier, I'd tread very cautiously as well. 

Sure, we'd like more information - but lets remember - this is a camera body, and a revamping of an existing product line. This isn't a totally new system from scratch. The lenses exist, new ones are probably a pretty sure bet (same manuf, same quality levels). The backs exist.

So from this point of view, I'm willing to cut them some slack and be a bit patient. I have every expectation they will deliver. I only hope they can do well enough within the US to get some real distribution and street presence.       

Geoff
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]