Frustration With Sinar

[Mort54]

I have to say that Sinar's marketing efforts on the Hy6 are quite bizarre. I've just spent some time on the new Hy6 forum on the SinarCameras site, and it's almost worthless. Almost no information is volunteered. If you don't ask, they don't tell. The camera is due to be generally available in June, and we are still forced to play 20 questions just to get the most rudimentary information.

Where is the published roadmap and dates for introducing all of the associated peripherals and new lenses? For that matter, where is the list of peripherals that will be available for the Hy6? Where are the detailed datasheets? Where are the detailed whitepapers? Where are the sample images? Why isn't all this stuff just put on the website where everyone can find it, rather than being forced to ask question after question, and get only coy superficial marketing-speak answers in return? All I've seen is the most basic 4-page marketing brochure, and that is pathetic considering that the product is going on general sale in only 3 more months.

Thiery, this isn't directed at you. You've done a great job. But the company you work for needs to realize that product release is almost upon us and it's time to stop treating every little tidbit of information as some kind of secret that has to be pried out of some tedious question and answer session on the website.

And to add insult to injury, the Hy6 FAQ website insists that there is an Earlybird program here in the USA for the Hy6, but SinarBron keeps telling me there is no such thing.

There is a lot to like about the new Hy6. But the way Sinar is handling the rollout leaves me feeling very unsure about whether this is the kind of company I want to do business with.

[Dustbak]

Funny that you mention it. I was thinking the same. I signed up for the forum as well. The questions aren't all answered and the answers indeed are cryptic and truly non-cooperative.

I approached the importer for Sinar over here about the early bird program but they just said they don't know anything and did not give it any further follow-up. This is in Europe.

You are right for a camera that is about to be released you expect better communication.

[Mort54]

Let me make a clarification to my earlier post.

First of all, as I already stated, my frustration is in no way directed at Thiery, who has done a wonderful job representing Sinar on this forum. Every company should be lucky enough to have someone like him volunteering their time in this way. But I should have also stated that my comments were in no way directed at the USA SinarBron staff, in particular Michael Grey, who have been very helpful and forthcoming in my dealings with them. My apologies for failing to make that point earlier.

My frustration is with the parent company, and their seeming reluctance to pony up more information on this potentially wonderful new product. I get the sense, in reading thru the answers on the SinarCameras web site, that information on the Hy6 is treated as some kind of secret that has to be dribbled out to potential customers. I'm sure that's not Sinar's intent, but that's the way they come across on their web site. Sorry, but I just don't understand this approach to product marketing.

In my humble opinion, Sinar should have a published roadmap on their website. They should have a complete list of peripherals that will be available for the Hy6, and when. They should have a writeup on how the new AFD lenses fit into all this, even if the lenses are made by another company. They should have sample photos from their various backs. They should officially indicate what's going on with the new back updates to add live view and improved image quality. They should clearly state how warranty servicing is being handled, and by whom, in each country. They should clearly state what's included in their extended warranty extra cost add-on. I'm sure I've left out some stuff. I consider these things to be mandatory conditions for doing business.

I know I'm just one person, but I can't believe I'm the only person who is frustrated about the paucity of information coming out on the Hy6 from the Sinar parent company, and the way in which they are dribbeling it out. I offer these comments not with the intent of bad mouthing any particular individual, but in the hope that Sinar will take note of them and address some of the issues I've raised.

Sincerely,
Hans.

[Morgan_Moore]

Do you remember the old days of cropped 11mp and 16mp chips?

Do you remember the manufacturers putting a big banner on thier websites saying this chip cuts your view in half and makes  wide angles useless

No. neither do I.

Do you remember sinar and blad trumpeting computer free non tethered shooting and then you find out you need to use an image bank or tank

Do you remember those handy devices not being included in the the publicity pictures

I do.

Because the less you knew about the product the more attractive it seemed

I guess Sinar have no road map or a very bumpy one mainly becuse of the 66 mirror

Making a wide will be really hard 35 let alone 28 will be really hard with such a big mirror and square coverage

Making a rotating back will be really hard becuse of the space limitations of the 6008 geometry

ANd the thing wont line up with cameras like the P3 without a pile of engineering

So Sinar have three  systems

One (hy6) flawed by lack of wide and movement exept through a discontinued camera the Xact

THe (M) flawed by p*ss poor synch speed and stupid cost

The CAB flawed by being movement only - those gigabucks lenses dont go on any MF bodies

How could they mess up like this

Simple they are trying to tinker with analogue design products (square pegs) and jam them into a round digital hole

They just dont seem to comprehend that most people can now only afford one back whereas before they could afford as many sizes of film as they desired and probably cant afford to duplicate on focal lenghts on thier lenses

Blad have most likely done the right thing by chucking all thier history in the bin even though they have dumped on a lot of people (including me) in the process

SMM

[Mort54]

One (hy6) flawed by lack of wide and movement [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108341\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, I don't think that's a valid criticism. The Hy6 isn't meant to be a technical view camera. It's a MF system, and I don't have any issues with that. In fact, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

My frustration isn't with the Hy6. By all indications, it's going to be a very nice addition to the MF scene, and I'm very seriously considering it for purchase this year. As for the lenses and the 6x6 mirror, all I can say is that I'm perfectly happy with 40mm on the wide end.

My frustation is simply with the information flow. My frustration is to some extent due to the fact that I'm used to dealing with companies like Nikon and Canon. Nikon and Canon bombard potential customers with detailed information and sample images. They use a retail sales model, which is a very different model than the MF manufacturers are using. The MF manufacturers are using a value added reseller sales model, and maybe the manufucturers see less of a need to provide all this high level information of the type I'm used to, and instead simply rely on the VARs to "get the word out". But as good as the VARs are, they can't provide their potential customers with information if Sinar itself isn't providing it to them.

Regards,
Hans.

[Caracalla]

Because the less you knew about the product the more attractive it seemed

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108341\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Don't you think Sinar is fair because even though we need more they offer exactly what they have and when they have more there will be more, but for now
 I suggest in stead of Sinar establishing their Sinar Forum they should better established the FM SINAR RADIO STATION and make it more interesting for multitasking   etc. until their beloved product reaches the stores.

[Morgan_Moore]

(lack of wide) Well, I don't think that's a valid criticism. The Hy6 isn't meant to be a technical view camera. It's a MF system, and I don't have any issues with that. In fact, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108342\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well if that what your looking for then it will be right for you

BUT

it isnt a technical view camera indeed but also without undoing a pile of mincy little screws (do that in front of a client on a windy day)  your sinar mount back WONT FIT on a technical view camera (that isnt dicontunued) which is pretty bizzare buecuse sinar was once the market leader for technical view cameras

ANd at 40mm I can see lots of people needing thier back (we can only afford one) going on something that offers the same wideness as thier competitor - blad

---

In terms of marketing what do you need to know ??

Its a camera  - some sharp lenses go on the front and some quality backs will go on the back - there is a mirror in it too so you can see and focus - there may even be a lightmeter - but who with a histogram uses those nowadays



---

In terms of the 'roadmap' I thnk they are struggling with future periferals specifically  a wide lens - thats why they dont publicise thier map

[pss]

I have to say that Sinar's marketing efforts on the Hy6 are quite bizarre. I've just spent some time on the new Hy6 forum on the SinarCameras site, and it's almost worthless. Almost no information is volunteered. If you don't ask, they don't tell. The camera is due to be generally available in June, and we are still forced to play 20 questions just to get the most rudimentary information.

Where is the published roadmap and dates for introducing all of the associated peripherals and new lenses? For that matter, where is the list of peripherals that will be available for the Hy6? Where are the detailed datasheets? Where are the detailed whitepapers? Where are the sample images? Why isn't all this stuff just put on the website where everyone can find it, rather than being forced to ask question after question, and get only coy superficial marketing-speak answers in return? All I've seen is the most basic 4-page marketing brochure, and that is pathetic considering that the product is going on general sale in only 3 more months.

Thiery, this isn't directed at you. You've done a great job. But the company you work for needs to realize that product release is almost upon us and it's time to stop treating every little tidbit of information as some kind of secret that has to be pried out of some tedious question and answer session on the website.

And to add insult to injury, the Hy6 FAQ website insists that there is an Earlybird program here in the USA for the Hy6, but SinarBron keeps telling me there is no such thing.

There is a lot to like about the new Hy6. But the way Sinar is handling the rollout leaves me feeling very unsure about whether this is the kind of company I want to do business with.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108210\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

just think what this would look like if they would have hired the hass marketing dept.! we would all get flooded with emails, shiny pics and who knows how they would play it up....
sinar, rollei (i know f&h..) have a looooong history of providing excellent product...if you can find out about, actually find it and afford it.....everything else nowadays considered most important in selling anything: marketing, hype, a solid ad campaign....well you won't get that from sinar or rollei (f&h).....the Hy6 has been more written about by the people who want to see it then by the people who should be interested in selling it....

the sinar back rotates on the 6008 just fine, but someone posting here said that becuase of the 6008 design it won't work....so even people who ARE interested don't know facts....the fact that the Hy6 won't allow rotation is another topic....that is simply insane...to actually take a step back....unless the Hy6 has a truly amazing 5zone AF system that actually works...why get the Hy6 over the 6008? but that is a different discussion....

it is very much like sinar/rollei NOT to make a lens that would not cover the entire area...hell why make a 6x6 if you are thinking digital only....it is a lot easier to make a 28 that covers a Dback then a 35mm that covers 6x6....
but from using schneider lenses on the 6008 i know that once a lens makes it into the market...it rocks...so the 35mm will be amazing....and i really think that if someone actually uses superWA (24,28, 35) with a Dback, a "4x5" system with movements is the better solution anyway....

[rainer_v]

is leaf providing more info? they sell also the same camera....
probably not sinar and not leaf have yet all the info you all are searching, cause the camera is develloped by jenoptik together with franke+heidecke ( rollei ).

just for interest awaked by this tread i logged myself in into the HY6 forum.
i cannot see unanswered  questions there, there is a woman called andrea who answered polied all the questions i could see, dont see also any "kryptic" answers..
i really do not understand what is so unclear for so many people. i see more or less clear what features will have the camera and what ( wide ) lenses will be  made. they plan a 35mm and not a 28mm lens.

[Mort54]

i cannot see unanswered  questions there....dont see also any "kryptic" answers..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Someone else made the comment about unanswered questions and kryptic answers. I just said that the answers provided were "coy superficial marketing-speak". OK, so that's a bit too harsh. Maybe way too harsh. But as I was going thru the questions and answers on their site yesterday, the main thought that kept popping into my head was "what a waste of time". Why should we be playing 20 questions with Sinar just to get basic information that they should be eagerly throwing at us. Maybe I'm just getting cranky in my old age, ahem, I meant in my mid-middle-age :-)

Regards,
Hans.

[thsinar]

Dear Hans,

Thank you for your comments below: while I can understand your criticism on some of the issues mentioned, one should put some others in perspective.

We (Sinar) have a long history of launching new products and have learned our "lessons" with announcing and spreading information in the market too quickly. This is even more true with the new ways of communication and the Internet tool. Our aim is to give reliable, concise and precise information. In the case of the Sinar Hy6, I have myself informed all and any single question here since months back: most what can be asked has been asked and all of those asked questions have been answered by myself on this forum.

Since the (very same) questions conitnued to "come in", I suggested to give the possibility to ask directly from Sinar, which has been done since nearly 1 month now. While one can certainly put in question the "How" it is done and the sometimes "unpractical" way to access, all questions have been answered by our Andrea as precisely and rightly as possible.

We are currently in the phase to finalize our marketing plan and information to be communicated: this is a long process (too long for some, I have to admit) which has to be done the right way and with the right information. We are working on this intensively to get it out at the  right time, about 1 1/2 to 2 months before the availability of the concerned product. It seems to me that this is fully understandable and right to do so. Others (competitors) choose a different way, and it is their right to do so.

Your comments have nevertheless and duly been forwarded to Sinar, to improve what can be.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

I have to say that Sinar's marketing efforts on the Hy6 are quite bizarre. I've just spent some time on the new Hy6 forum on the SinarCameras site, and it's almost worthless. Almost no information is volunteered. If you don't ask, they don't tell. The camera is due to be generally available in June, and we are still forced to play 20 questions just to get the most rudimentary information.

Where is the published roadmap and dates for introducing all of the associated peripherals and new lenses? For that matter, where is the list of peripherals that will be available for the Hy6? Where are the detailed datasheets? Where are the detailed whitepapers? Where are the sample images? Why isn't all this stuff just put on the website where everyone can find it, rather than being forced to ask question after question, and get only coy superficial marketing-speak answers in return? All I've seen is the most basic 4-page marketing brochure, and that is pathetic considering that the product is going on general sale in only 3 more months.

Thiery, this isn't directed at you. You've done a great job. But the company you work for needs to realize that product release is almost upon us and it's time to stop treating every little tidbit of information as some kind of secret that has to be pried out of some tedious question and answer session on the website.

And to add insult to injury, the Hy6 FAQ website insists that there is an Earlybird program here in the USA for the Hy6, but SinarBron keeps telling me there is no such thing.

There is a lot to like about the new Hy6. But the way Sinar is handling the rollout leaves me feeling very unsure about whether this is the kind of company I want to do business with.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108210\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Mort54]

Dear Hans,

.....while I can understand your criticism on some of the issues mentioned, one should put some others in perspective.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108390\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for replying Thierry. I will try to be a little more patient.

[rgmoore]

Let me make a clarification to my earlier post.

First of all, as I already stated, my frustration is in no way directed at Thiery, who has done a wonderful job representing Sinar on this forum. Every company should be lucky enough to have someone like him volunteering their time in this way. But I should have also stated that my comments were in no way directed at the USA SinarBron staff, in particular Michael Grey, who have been very helpful and forthcoming in my dealings with them. My apologies for failing to make that point earlier.

My frustration is with the parent company, and their seeming reluctance to pony up more information on this potentially wonderful new product. I get the sense, in reading thru the answers on the SinarCameras web site, that information on the Hy6 is treated as some kind of secret that has to be dribbled out to potential customers. I'm sure that's not Sinar's intent, but that's the way they come across on their web site. Sorry, but I just don't understand this approach to product marketing.

In my humble opinion, Sinar should have a published roadmap on their website. They should have a complete list of peripherals that will be available for the Hy6, and when. They should have a writeup on how the new AFD lenses fit into all this, even if the lenses are made by another company. They should have sample photos from their various backs. They should officially indicate what's going on with the new back updates to add live view and improved image quality. They should clearly state how warranty servicing is being handled, and by whom, in each country. They should clearly state what's included in their extended warranty extra cost add-on. I'm sure I've left out some stuff. I consider these things to be mandatory conditions for doing business.

I know I'm just one person, but I can't believe I'm the only person who is frustrated about the paucity of information coming out on the Hy6 from the Sinar parent company, and the way in which they are dribbeling it out. I offer these comments not with the intent of bad mouthing any particular individual, but in the hope that Sinar will take note of them and address some of the issues I've raised.

Sincerely,
Hans.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108306\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are not alone in this. I have experienced the same frustration since last year when Hy6 was
announced at Photokina which was followed by the "Early Bird Special" offer. It was early in February this year when I found out that such an offer was never meant for us in USA. More recently according to Hy6 Forum an "Early Bird Special" is available in USA, but neither Sinar Bron Imaging nor any Sinar dealers know anything about it. "We'll look into it"  is the usual respose.

In stark contrast to Thiery's friendly and personable replies, Sinar's Hy6 Forum resposes are polite, but cold and aloof. Apart from these personal matters, I am concerned about the quality of tech support based on such restrained release of information about a product that is about to be
launched.

As a long time fan of Sinar and Schneider products I hope this project goes well, but in this case I will follow the lead of experienced pros and wait for a year or two until there is a proven track record.

[Morgan_Moore]

the sinar back rotates on the 6008 just fine, but someone posting here said that becuase of the 6008 design it won't work

it is very much like sinar/rollei NOT to make a lens that would not cover the entire area...hell why make a 6x6 if you are thinking digital only....[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108358\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

-I meant rotation without removal from the body and exposing the sensor to the elements

The 6008 design defined the position of the lenses and 'film' plane leaving not enough room for a spinning back mechanism

Or can you clarify that the back does not need to come off the 6008

-All the lenses will need to cover 66 (nearlty) because they have to work in either orientation

And the size of the 66 mirror still needs to be cleared which means the lenses need to be another 15mm more retrofocal than on a 645 design (unless they did some mirror up only lenses like the nikkor fisheye) - there are 'no plans' for a 28 lens

-the AF is center point even if it uses 5 sensors to do its calulations

 All of this is, to my understanding, clarified on the HY6 forum

SMM

[Dustbak]

Someone else made the comment about unanswered questions and kryptic answers. I just said that the answers provided were "coy superficial marketing-speak". OK, so that's a bit too harsh. Maybe way too harsh. But as I was going thru the questions and answers on their site yesterday, the main thought that kept popping into my head was "what a waste of time". Why should we be playing 20 questions with Sinar just to get basic information that they should be eagerly throwing at us. Maybe I'm just getting cranky in my old age, ahem, I meant in my mid-middle-age :-)

Regards,
Hans.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108372\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I said that. Maybe kryptic isn't the right word. Answers are mostly in the form of one-liners (or otherwise really short) where the underlying thought of the question is very clear and a somewhat longer more helpful answer would be more appropriate. This might also have to do with the way the forum has been setup, design wise nice but not very handy to get a good overview of what is going on and not a lot of room for giving longer answers.

As I said not all questions are answered (at least a couple of days ago they weren't)

Hans described it better probably. The way information is fed is like playing 20 questions. If you don't ask we will not tell you.

The concept of relying on VAR's to spread the word might work for very specialised equipment and when all Var's everywhere are reliable and willing to do so. It is however a very weak link and I for one would not want to base the communication of my new product on Var's.

I am not making any judgement on the Hy6 at this moment (there is n't much to judge upon) but the way it is being brought doesn't seem to follow the 6 P's of communication.

Rollei products are really good however but almost nobody uses them in contrast to for instance Hass. When Sinar & Leaf are not careful this might happen to them as well which I would really piss me of. I think everybody is better of when both the Hy6 as well as the Afi will be a great succes from the start.

[rainer_v]

i really do not want to defend the hy6 marketing,- but my personal interest in the hy6/avi is not too high, cause i am more than content with my contax 645 system ..... maybe here is also part of the  reason why i do not understand where the problem is with the hy6 infos.
..... so many discussion have appeared in LL  about that camera, that even i ( who is not very interested in this subject ) know now so much about the hy ... more than about any mf camera which i have not owned.
also in the sinar forum i cannot see any question which has not been asked here before ( and answered by thierry or yaya ) several times.

[samuel_js]

Yes, It's been a lot of discussion about all this Hy6 thing the last months. I was very interestedin the new Hy6, but I ended up selling all my rollei  stuff for a month ago. I sincerely think the whole sinar/leaf/rollei project is a disaster that's only confusing photographers.
We need to thing about what we need for our job and try to get away from this crazy marketed world.
Personally I've decided to go back to my beautiful 503CW and a fantastic new purchased Contax 645. The Hy6 is dead for me now. If it happens one day, well then we'll see...

Samuel

[rainer_v]

i will start thinking about it if i see one and hold it in my hands...

[bradleygibson]

My goodness people, I think we're being a little harsh here.

I was grateful that Thierry suggested the forum to Sinar HQ, and they went ahead and set it up.  I know of no other company that has extended such a hand to its customer base, particularly on an unannounced product.

Thierry said that all questions would be answered within a business day, and this is basically what I have observed.  I don't know if the folks who are claiming not all the questions were answered have checked back the following day, but on those occasions where I have seen an unanswered question, I checked back the next day and found that Andrea had answered every question.

Then complaints surfaced about the answers being "coy superficial marketing speak", "cryptic" and "cold and aloof".  I encourage folks to log on and see for themselves.  In my opinion, the answers are short, clear, and professional.  Perhaps most importantly, I have confidence that they are *accurate*, coming directly from Sinar from what appears to be  a knowledgeable Sinar employee.  (Let us also not assume that everyone's first language is English...)

I have no relationship with Sinar.  I just read this thread and felt that we hadn't been very fair, or even accurate in the criticism that was leveled  (somewhat the opposite, in fact).

Would I like to see a more conventional and complete release of information on a system that I too am considering purchasing?  Yes, of course.  The "Early Bird Special" program appears to be a bit of a fiasco at least for US-based customers, if reports in this thread are accurate-- of course people should voice their opinions about this.

But I also hope we can also give credit where it is due, rather than inaccurately (IMHO) criticizing the efforts Sinar is making.  Some of their folks at least, seem to be going out of their way to keep us informed and connected with what must be a difficult and complex process.  I'd like to say 'thank you' to them for that.

Just my 2 cents,
Brad

[pss]

-I meant rotation without removal from the body and exposing the sensor to the elements

The 6008 design defined the position of the lenses and 'film' plane leaving not enough room for a spinning back mechanism

Or can you clarify that the back does not need to come off the 6008

-All the lenses will need to cover 66 (nearlty) because they have to work in either orientation

And the size of the 66 mirror still needs to be cleared which means the lenses need to be another 15mm more retrofocal than on a 645 design (unless they did some mirror up only lenses like the nikkor fisheye) - there are 'no plans' for a 28 lens

-the AF is center point even if it uses 5 sensors to do its calulations

 All of this is, to my understanding, clarified on the HY6 forum

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the 6008 supports rotation without taking the back off...
this is (was) actually clearly shown on the rollei website and in the pdf....
 
the circle of illumination is just that..a circle...so it does not matter which way the back is rotated....for a DMF back....but of course covering 6x6 is whole different story....

from what i have heard and have seen the Hy6 will have 5 zone af....but i also thought that the back would rotate..so what do i know....