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Jim Cole

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« on: March 11, 2007, 11:39:15 pm »

OK everyone...after reading all the mixed comments on this machine over the last month or so, with some trepidation, I finally leased a 44" model from HP and it was delivered to the house last Thursday evening. Set up began Friday morning.

First, my qualifier. I am a full time professional landscape photographer shooting mostly large format cameras and film for the last three years. I sell my work in galleries, thru art consultants for commercial and residential installations and for publication. The majority of my prints are done by West Coast Imaging in California using a Chromira for my glossy paper work and Epson 9600 or 9800 printers for my fine art matte paper work. I do all the color correction work based on the 4x5 transparency and then send the file via FTP to WCI for printing. My smaller work has been produced in my studio on an Epson 2200 on luster and Fine Art papers for about four years. I do not make gamut charts or pixel peep. I base my opinions on the final print, no matter who prints it.

The set up has been described in detail elsewhere, so suffice it to say that it was easy to assemble the machine alone except for turning over the beast after the stand was attached which required the assistance of my wife. HP's attention to detail really showed as assemply was straight forward and easy.

After running a LAN cable through my attic on Friday afternoon (again thanks to my trooper wife) the machine was hooked up and ready to boot up. Boot up was flawless and the loading of ink cartridges and printheads was uneventful. The only mistake in the instructions comes when it says "while the print heads are being prepared, you can spend the time loading the software". Well, the software will not install, until the print heads have done their thing and the little green ready light comes on the printer control board. Minor misdirection although it did give me a bit of worry as to why the software install was failing. Aftyer the second try...I figured it out and decided to wait at which time all the software installed cleanly.

My next pause for concern was when I decided to update the firmware to the latest as I had read a post or two that cited problems. I can see why someone may have created errors on their machines. After downloading the file from the HP wab site I was ready to install the firmware when I read the notice on the install screen that said to make sure you were installing the unzipped file. I looked at the file again and realized it had no extension. I looked on the HP site on the firmware screen and found a little notice that said "diuring download, the three letter file extension may be stripped off...pleas add .exe to the file name. After doing that and running the exe file, I had a firmware file withe a .frm (I think) extension. The firmware update went smoothly as did updates of the HP  Care Center software and new profiles install.

Next was calibrating and profiling two papers (I haven't received my HP Satin or Fine Art papers yet). I used Inkjet Art Micro Ceramic Luster, a paper I have used for my open editio prints on my Epson 2200 for a couple of years, and Premier Art Smooth 325 gsm Fine Art Paper. The calibration and profiling went smoothly as had everything else to this point.

Next was to print the Z3100 test file that everyone had been using with the multiple images including children, strawberries, red telephones and gray scale charts. A small copy of the file has been attached.

The luster paper printed wonderfully including outstanding skin tones, realistic red strawberries, red telephones, fruits candies and and completely neutral black and whites. Impressive.

The one I was worried about was printing the same test file on the Premier Art Fine Art paper. This seemed to be where all the problems were before the last firmware . Well, no worries. The matte paper printed every bit as good as the luster paper with even slightly better definition on the gray scales and a couple of blocks of color on the color test chart. The Premier Art paper is a very warm colored paper as compared to the Luster, so all the lighter grays and whites took on the warm tones of the paper which was quite pleasant. All other colors, red, yellows, purples, greens, skintones, etc looked every bit as good as on the luster paper. Shadow detail was excellent.

Then I proceeded to print two of my more difficult images, one on luster and one on the Premier Art. I have attached both files so you can see them. One is a very vibrant sunset image and the other is a fall foliage image taken in the shade of a canyon with a lot of dark saturated colors. All the Grand Canyon prints have been produced by WCI on a Chromira (similar to a LightJet) digital enlarger. The Blue Mood prints have been produced by WCI on an Epson 9600 on Photo Rag 308.

After making a few color adjustments in both images based on soft proofing with my newly created profiles, and two 8x10 proofs, each image was printed at 11x14 to compare directly with the WCI images. These were printed at best quality with the driver set at 1200 dpi.

The results, I have to say make me very happy. The Grand Canyon image has every bit the vibrance and actually more detail overall especially in the highlight areas. The shadows are every bit as good as the Chromira print. There is no area on the print where the Chromira exceeds the Z3100 print in chroma or detail. And this is printed on my cheap InkJet Art luster paper. I can't wait to see this image on the HP Professional Satin. It might be darn close to an Ilfochrome.

The Blue Mood image was printed on the Premier Art Smooth Fine Art which has a lower gamut than the PhotoRag. Nonetheless, with a bit of tweaking in the soft proof mode, this print reproduced about 98% of the gamut of the 9600 on PhotoRag (this is my guess). The deep red and blue shadows suffered only slightly, but nothing that would jump out at a prospective print buyer. I have a feeling when I print this on the PhotoRag, I will have a hard time telling the difference.

Finally, I will state enthusiastically that I am extremely pleased with this machine. All of my worries over the last six weeks when I was contemplating the purchase of this printer were unfounded. I will post some updates with the HP and HM papers as I can. As a disclaimer, I do not work for or have any professional relationships with HP.

[attachment=2079:attachment][attachment=2080:attachment][attachment=2081:attachm
ent]

Jim Cole
www.jimcolephoto.com
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Jim Cole
Flagstaff, AZ www.jimcolephoto.

neil snape

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2007, 04:29:25 am »

There are some other small mistakes in the guide, set up etc but they were signaled after it was printed. Overall as many have said the set up for a production printer has never been easier. I have set up quite a few and it has been perfect every-time.

The majority of the media set ups, were and remain to be very nice, well balanced and perfectly suitable to sellable prints. The bias when HP were making the final tweaks to color geared towards Satin and Glossy media. Way back when the fine art media had some problems with blocking up ( called contouring) yet the dMax and gamut was quite good. Some little changes to make the Satin and Glossy better adversely affected the fine art side. Then the chase for fine art and photo media perfection began and things started to get complicated for them and  testers.
When the printers were released all the photo media were actually quite a bit better than during the test period. What is changing is the fine art side, which I think has already been included in the latest firmware.

Most of the concerning reports are fraught with too many changes, or mixing media , or who knows what else.

Simply put if used correctly the Z 3100 outputs very nice sellable prints. The improvements for fine art media were necessary, and may still evolve but on the right media set up and a media that is correct such as HP Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art or say Epson enhanced still produces , as you state, very nice prints comparable to other prints.
There are differences in all three LFP pigment printer brands. All will have their stronger and weaker points.
Post such as yours are proving what most users find. By using prints ( your prints and images) as the thing to judge image quality by , you can easily see the strengths of the Z printers. I also have confidence in West Coast Imaging, so there is one of the ultimate references in image quality to compare the Z printers to.
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vgogolak

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2007, 08:49:13 am »

I am very interested in the Z3100 as well. My big question is this; for gloss how does this compare to a real photo from a lab?

I have the HP sample kit and the canvas was quite impressive, but the flower and water was very disappointing gloss. Comapred to a glossy print from Dale labs the HP gloss looked, as one person said "like a poster" and then said seems like a magazine cut out.

That same person then was quite impressed with the canvas and said that was really top qualityn printing.

What do you owners feel? Is it a paper issue? I must say, as dye sub owner and lab user that for gloss I have not seen the comparable. Of course for canvas, no question that inkjet can be like a painting!

BTW I use Dale iPrints and a 20"x30" glossy is $20. It would seem that one would need over 500 large prints per year to amortize the 24" HP

Of course, the 44" cannot be easilyt lab duplicated, but 20x30 is quite big enough for me and I can get 20x60 pano printed on Kodak photo paper.

Now, bigger issue is the non paper media, has anyome tried those??

regards
Victor
« Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 08:51:51 am by vgogolak »
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neil snape

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2007, 09:07:20 am »

The gloss is very good. What makes it possible is the Gloss Enhancer. This makes it slightly better than all other inkjet printers. The GE is fragile though so handle with care.
Is your question what are third party media profiles like?

If yes, they are fine and most media tried are working out fine.
Some limited fine art media that bend with humidity are not working out according to users. All the fine art media I've tried do work very well , no problems. I see that the relatively uncoated rag media do not perform as well as the optimised media such as Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art media, or any other coated fine art media.
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namartinnz

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2007, 04:09:38 pm »

I've had my 44" Z3100 for a few weeks now, having upgraded from an Epson 4000. I mainly print on canvas and Epson Premium Luster with some small usage of Epson Enhanced Matt . With a calibrated monitor I'm getting great colours on the canvas and luster paper - better than the epson. Jury still out on the matt as I haven't done enough prints to form an opinion. I've been following all the threads regarding the colour issues associated with art papers - it will be interesting to see how HP fixes the issues. Considering I paid $15600NZ ($10900US) I want everything to be perfect too!

No worries on head blockages, which seems to get worse and worse on my 4000 which I still use for non crticial prints

One irritation I have is when inserting a satin/luster paper on roll, why does the printer cut a 3" inch strip, even when alignment is good? This doesn't happen to matt papers, even with the paper cutter setting on. Is there any way to prevent this? Otherwise I'm a happy camper and glad to be able to make large format prints with no issues of switching between matt & photo black inks

Neal Martin
www.photorestoration.co.nz

neil snape

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2007, 05:14:00 pm »

Yes this is true. It used to cut off fine art media too but I didn't notice it not doing this until your post.
I did ask about the cut off last summer but they told me no, it was not undoable.

There are tweaks that have been done to fine art media, also to heavy or thick fine art media (essentially heavy torchon and rag types) that are in the latest firmware. This is V 4.1.0.2 for the non PS versions.

According to the posts the prints on fine art are very bad. Hard to say what the problem is as many have been able to print well on the HP media and others too including Epson Enhanced. The relatively uncoated media are not the forte of the HP nor Canon printers but Hp tell me they still are on it, and improvements have been made on all fine art media.

I just re-read what HP sent me today. They say they have improved reds on most photo media and all fine art media.
I have tested most of what is in there , and I had some large improvements, in the problem areas of the images I sent them to work on.
I'm currently printing a new portfolio on Pro Satin. Excellent prints with no issues.
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Jim Cole

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2007, 05:17:43 pm »

Neal,

Glad you are a happy camper too. It seems the matte performance will depend on th epapers used. So far with a bit of soft proof tweaking, the Premier Art looks very good, but the soft proof with the HP Smooth Fine Art looks even better. I have not received my initial roll of the HP yet and I just ordered some Hm PhotoRag which is what most of my fine art prints are on. I'll do some testing when I get it.

I'm not sure why we lose a 3" strip of photo paper at the beginning of every print. I'll have to see what I can find out. I have not encountered any contro; for eliminating this yet, but maybe disengaging the cutter in the driver will work. Then, of course, we will have to hand cut the prints. Don't know yet.

Jim
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Jim Cole
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namartinnz

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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2007, 06:18:08 pm »

Jim

Somehow I don't think turning off the cutter in software will eliminate this issue. I think it's set in the firmware. And being the way I work, I keep switching between rolls of Luster and Canvas each day as prints are required, this 3" strip could result in a lot of wastage. Saying that, it's small change compared to ink wastage with the Epson 4000. After continuous head blockages today I finally did my first ever power clean. Almost gagged when it chewed thru 96mls of ink! Might as well get a $100 note and burn it....

And I look forward to feedback on the HP Pro Satin paper. If it can print better than Epson Luster then I'll be really impressed. Biggest issue is sourcing it here in NZ to trial.

Neal
www.photorestoration.co.nz

neil snape

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2007, 06:35:00 pm »

I am spending too much timne looking at tall the new changes in firmware etc but here it is:

http://homepage.mac.com/neil_snape/.Public...nvsEpsonPLU.jpg

Bill Atkinson profile on GMB as mine is.
HP Pro Satin the coloured, and Epson the white .
This is from the top. Both are good. Both have colour (s) that are achieved only on one combination. HP has more impact in the light saturated colours, Epson still have dark saturated colours, surprisingly now more in the blue green blue below 40 L. Reds now are on par or better for HP than Epson, also in the dark saturated regions.
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ricgal

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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 07:44:02 pm »

Quote
Jim

Somehow I don't think turning off the cutter in software will eliminate this issue. I think it's set in the firmware. And being the way I work, I keep switching between rolls of Luster and Canvas each day as prints are required, this 3" strip could result in a lot of wastage. Saying that, it's small change compared to ink wastage with the Epson 4000. After continuous head blockages today I finally did my first ever power clean. Almost gagged when it chewed thru 96mls of ink! Might as well get a $100 note and burn it....

And I look forward to feedback on the HP Pro Satin paper. If it can print better than Epson Luster then I'll be really impressed. Biggest issue is sourcing it here in NZ to trial.

Neal
www.photorestoration.co.nz
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106334\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As an aside-  i have had not a blockage on my 4000 since i stored a guitar humidifier by the head when it is off-  It will save me 100's through the year for a small change investment1
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Jim Cole

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2007, 10:04:45 am »

Hi Neal,

Yea, you're right. I wasn't thinking. Maybe this will be fixed in the next firmware. As Neil Snape said, the printer used to do the same for matte papers, but quit on this last firmware update.

Goot go make some prints.

Jim
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Jim Cole
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deelight

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2007, 01:33:41 pm »

Quote
Yea, you're right. I wasn't thinking. Maybe this will be fixed in the next firmware.


Off topic, but they also could fix that the fan is running day and night...  

Best, Clem
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Jim Cole

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2007, 01:30:48 pm »

Ok, a few more days have passed and I have had a chance to  play with HP's Professional Satin and HM PhotoRag 308.

I have already made some comments on the PhotoRag on this forum while answering to the subject "Z3100 Custom/Native Paper Types" posted by Sean Puckett. I got better results using HP's Litho paper setting to calibrate and build a profile on the 308 than I did the Heavy Fine Art setting. The transitions from deep blacks to various lighter shadow areas was much smoother using the Litho paper setting. This is a bit contrary to the concept of generic paper settings and just means that for a while longer (until the next firmware release or two) some experimentation is needed for third party papers. All in all, I now have a very pleasing "Blue Mood" print to sell as a continuation of my edition on the Z3100(virtually identical to my previous prints on a 9600 on PhotoRag). Now, it seems to follow, that all my other PhotoRag editions should be darn close as well.

As to the Professional Satin...WOW! It is my humble opinion that this paper with the Vivera Inks rivals hand made Ilfochome prints. The luminous quality is amazing. I printed a good seller of mine that has a rainbow coming down from storm clouds in Monument Valley (attached below) that I had been getting produced on a Chromira enlarger at West Coast Imaging. I was never really happy with the rainbow as it seemed to transition from orange to yellow with very little hint of red, green or purple. Printing the same file on the Z3100 gave me 1) a more luminous image and 2) a rainbow with a clean gradient from red to orange to yellow to green to blue/purple. An amazing difference.

Another thing that I am going to love is the thickness of this paper (300 gsm). The glossy and to a lesser degree the matte Fuji Professional Crystal Archive papers used on the Chromira and LightJet printers are much thinner and have two associated issues. First, they can be ruined by crinkling with the slightest mishandling, and second when dry mounted, they exhibit the orange peel effect that ruins the smoothness of the image. This Pro Satin is so thick that I can say without even trying to mount one that the orange peel will be history. You can also pick up a 16x24 print by one corner and not crease the print. Handling is way better.

I have some HP HM Smooth Fine Art paper showing up today that I am looking forward to comparing to the HM 308.

I'll keep you informed

Jim

[attachment=2108:attachment]
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Jim Cole
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neil snape

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2007, 01:54:09 pm »

My favourite HP media is by far the Pro Satin.
If you can profile it with Advanced Profile Solution or an external, so much the better. Write me and I'll send you a PM 5.07 profile if you like. That is for the latest firmware though which may slightly change the character.

The Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art is so much better than the stock PhotoRag. Night and day difference. Colour repro on normal PhotoRag is less than ideal. Smooth FA has very good colour much more brightness, and is highly optimised for HP pigments. It works in Epson printers too, and is around the equivalent of a PR base but image quality as the Enhanced Velvet.


The media that take my breath away was launched at PMA> Innova Ultra. Between HP PRo Satin and Innova side by side though they are close, each having their own character. Like in the old days of a huge variety of darkroom fiber base papers you have to try them to find the one that enamors you.
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neil snape

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2007, 01:55:11 pm »

Quote
Off topic, but they also could fix that the fan is running day and night...   

Best, Clem
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106478\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ah no that isn't going to change. The off button works though.
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Jim Cole

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2007, 03:39:07 pm »

Neil,

Nice to know you feel the same way about the Pro Satin. It is an amazing paper/ink combo.

I will email you so you can send me the profile. I appreciate that. I will try it on the current firmware and see what happens.

I am a bit disappointed today as I was planning to work with HP Smooth Fine Art paper all weekend, but it has been one thing after another trying to get the paper. The roll I ordered with the printer is back ordered, so I ordered a pack of 13x19 from HP. I paid for 2nd Day Air and it arrived Wednesday, but damaged due to improper packing. I called HP Customer Service who apologized sent out another pack on Thursday overnight at their expense. Nice. Then Friday the package is delivered packed the same way and damaged the same way. Called HP again and they are shipping another overnight, but it won't get here until Monday. Friday I called the dealer I bought the printer from and they felt bad that I didn't have the paper I needed and decided to send me a 44" roll of the Smooth Fine Art (it was free to them as it was provided by HP for demos) free of charge and she said she would send it Priority Overnight Saturday delivery. So today, I check the tracking number and it was never checked for Saturday delivery so I won't see it until Monday. Arghh!!!

I think the HP Fine Art paper is cursed.

I may have to try the Inova Ultra, but I would love to be able to output all my images on the two HP papers. It would simplify my life. I currently use about 7 or 8 papers to deal with varying image gamuts on different output devices. I am very hopeful that the Pro Satin and the Smooth Fine Art will handle everything on the Z3100.

Jim
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Jim Cole
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deelight

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New Z3100 44" First Impressions
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2007, 01:58:16 pm »

Quote
Ah no that isn't going to change. The off button works though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107190\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Neil!

Thanks for the input - my info is that HP recommends the z3100 to be left on due to cleaning cycles and if I remember right there is loss of ink when the printer is started by the on/off button. Am I wrong?

@ All: What do you use? Sleep mode or 100% off?

Doing my first bigger batch of prints during the last days I noticed that I get better results (at least on HP Litho realistic 270gsm) when setting the color to "printer driven" and not "application driven" like always recommended. Any comments?

Best regards from Germany!

Clem
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neil snape

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« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2007, 02:34:38 pm »

Quote
Neil!

Thanks for the input - my info is that HP recommends the z3100 to be left on due to cleaning cycles and if I remember right there is loss of ink when the printer is started by the on/off button. Am I wrong?

@ All: What do you use? Sleep mode or 100% off?

Doing my first bigger batch of prints during the last days I noticed that I get better results (at least on HP Litho realistic 270gsm) when setting the color to "printer driven" and not "application driven" like always recommended. Any comments?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107307\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes I turn mine off when I'm not going to use it. The start up uses more ink as the wipe in the capping station is more agressive ( I'm assuming from the noise but I will check with engineering) and there is always a nozzle check performed. It's probably not a huge difference, other than quiet in the house when off, and the 33 watts at idle .

You could give HP Collector Satin Canvas a go. That is what seems to work with matte papers well.
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