Topic: best for B&W z3100, ipf 5000 or 3800 (Read 4765 times)

EricWHiss · « **on:** February 28, 2007, 02:31:58 pm »

Hi All,
I've been following the z3100 gamut thread and tentatively have put my order on hold until the gamut issues are resolved. Unfortunately I sold both my printers (epson 7600, epson 4000) before finding out about the z3100 red gamut issue. I am getting anxious to have a new printer....

About 1/3 of my printing is black and white and so much of the discussion has to do with color - I'm wondering how these printers compare in the black and white department. I've been printing my B&W images on both matte and luster papers about equally.

What do you all think? Are there any differences in the B&W output between these three printers?
Does the 4 blacks help the z3100 take the lead?

Thanks for your input,
Eric Hiss

adiallo · « **Reply #1 on:** February 28, 2007, 02:53:31 pm »

Based on my experiences if you print through the OEM driver, the Z3100 wins hands down for bw. On matte you have 4 mono inks printing simultaneously. No color inks at all unless you tint or split tone. Even better, in RGB images wherever there are equal RGB values only the mono inks are used. With the Epson you can never print exclusively with mono inks (without a RIP). You can do this on both the Canon and HP out of the box. Overall, I found more delicate highlight detail than the Epson and (to me) a more pleasing mono ink tone than the Canon. Of course you can tone the image if you don't like the mono ink hue but a quad K setup has the potential to be more stable and lightfast than one that includes color inks.

On the downside I'm finding the HP profiler engine (non-APS) is stepping on the shadows a bit. You can work around this by adjusting the image's grayscale gamma working space prior to print but that's not ideal from a color managed perspective. Hopefully a firmware/driver release will retain more shadow detail.

On glossy, the 3100 uses 3 mono inks and the gloss enhancer.

The Canon is a very nice machine but for glossy you need to use Canon's own papers. The ink set has no gloss enhancer and on the non-Canon surfaces I tried, at least, the bronzing and gloss differential was a deal-breaker. Also, if you're considering the Canon have a look at John Hollenberg's wiki for an idea of how much you'll be relying on other end users for support and documentation.

jpgentry · « **Reply #2 on:** March 02, 2007, 02:09:48 pm »

I see alot of baseless comments in this post... I really wouldn't base a buying decision on opinions like these:

Quote

The Canon is a very nice machine but for glossy you need to use Canon's own papers. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Canon prints very well on papers other than Canon. I just printed with Museo Max with black and white and the images were great.

madmanchan · « **Reply #3 on:** March 02, 2007, 04:02:44 pm »

Is Museo Max glossy?

marty m · « **Reply #4 on:** March 02, 2007, 09:12:27 pm »

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Is Museo Max glossy?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104291\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A great response. Maybe those who accuse others of baseless comments should first know the difference between mat and glossy papers. . . .

EricWHiss · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2007, 01:04:21 pm »

Hey Guys,
Thanks for all info on these 3 printers that relates to black and white printing:
Specifically can you tell me more about:

depth of blacks
shadow detail
highlight detail
Any color shifts in different lighting
what's the best paper for black and white that you've used?
color of the basic black and white - tending towards warm or cold?
how does the printer work with tones?

Thanks!
Eric

jpgentry · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2007, 07:22:57 pm »

I wrote Max but I mean Museo silver rag which the Canon does very well with.

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Is Museo Max glossy?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104291\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think the point stands. Do you have a different opinion? Is it based on comparison or the fact that you have an HP? If so specifics and resons why would be more helpful than blaket statments like the above regarding using canons glossy media on canon printers only.

ricgal · « **Reply #7 on:** March 04, 2007, 10:00:27 am »

The feel of the B&W images from the Z3100 are very good because of the GE and there is almost NO metamerism. ( gone are the days of carrying my own light source with my portfolio I am glad to say) I use HP pro Satin for all my portfolio B&W's now as it is a good all rounder without being too warm which I do not like.
The Innova papers have a nasty ruddy bronzing in their blacks which is a shame since they work so well with Epsons.
I am trying Kentmere Elite Fibre Gloss at present and is a good imitation of a fibre gloss, It takes the ink very well but there are slight roller marks on the image, (Its gamut is reduced in colour as well although this may not be relevant)

I got the printer at least to output a series of B&W's for exhibition, i feel I have made the right choice although it will be many months before i am getting the best out of it.

eronald · « **Reply #8 on:** March 04, 2007, 10:37:06 pm »

I have seen beautiful B&W from the Z HP printers. I'm less impressed by the color output, but I would unreservedly recommend this machine to anyone who has a significant amount of B&W fine art work.

Edmund

naisan · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2007, 02:15:59 am »

I will start by saying that I have not seen side-by-side prints from the 3100 but own the canon iPF5000, but have seen many from the 3800/2400/whatever Epson family.

The Canon to my eyes has deeper blacks, and better gradation in the dark blacks. I believe that there are some reviews out there which talk about the Dmax of the Canon being around 2.5 with innova fibaprint. I'd check this website's review for starts (I mean Luminous Landscape). .

A recent review at digitaljournalist (google for ipf5000 and dmax) says that on satin the ipf gets 2.10 and the hp does 2.3, so the hp might get deeper blacks. But remember you can buy 2.5 iPF5000s for a z3100. . .but then again it's a 17" vs a 24" printer.

But at this point, you're really pressing the issue - the truth is that unless you're VERY discerning, you might not be able to tell results from one printer vs another at all.

And your technique has to be pretty good, including a very good printer profile and monitor profile, before you're going to eke that edge out of one printer over another.

I'd buy the one that makes you happiest in other ways. . .

Have you thought about cost, the size of the printers, cost of materials, roll paper handling etc. . ?

start by reading the review of the 3100 on this site, esp the bottom part. . .

Naisan

EricWHiss · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2007, 03:08:43 am »

The best black and white prints I have seen were made with piezotones from cone on a 7600. The second best, I've also seen some in a museum in europe that were made on a roland davinci fitted with piezotones. Oddly I don't think dmax is a big an issue as other things like tonality, shadow detail, etc. After seeing the peizotones I purchased a used epson 3000 and set up my own quad piezotones. This printer was a real PIA especially with the old piezotone formulas (clogging, etc) but I could easily resolve the difference between 0,0,0 and 1,1,1

I think with my epson 4000 I didn't see any real difference between 0,0,0 and 15,15,15 and I had imageprint for it.

Now I am not trying to open a debate about piezotones since I really only want to buy one printer for both color and b&w. I had been thinking that both the canon and the hp would come close since they have more blacks. Can anyone comment on these printers more specifically to the shadow detail and quality of the blacks - soft, hard, warm, cold? The piezotones had such a lovely velvet quality (which was mostly lost under glass - but still very cool).

naisan · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2007, 01:17:33 pm »

Quote

The best black and white prints I have seen were made with piezotones from cone on a 7600. The second best, I've also seen some in a museum in europe that were made on a roland davinci fitted with piezotones. Oddly I don't think dmax is a big an issue as other things like tonality, shadow detail, etc. After seeing the peizotones I purchased a used epson 3000 and set up my own quad piezotones. This printer was a real PIA especially with the old piezotone formulas (clogging, etc) but I could easily resolve the difference between 0,0,0 and 1,1,1

I think with my epson 4000 I didn't see any real difference between 0,0,0 and 15,15,15 and I had imageprint for it.

Now I am not trying to open a debate about piezotones since I really only want to buy one printer for both color and b&w. I had been thinking that both the canon and the hp would come close since they have more blacks. Can anyone comment on these printers more specifically to the shadow detail and quality of the blacks - soft, hard, warm, cold? The piezotones had such a lovely velvet quality (which was mostly lost under glass - but still very cool).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104734\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

To my eyes the Canon has nicer black gradation than the epson x800 family with epson inks. That said, I haven't run a test to see whether I can see RGB gradations at a certain point. . .maybe tonight ;-)

The tones are very malleable - I can get almost anything I want via soft-proofing - I favor slightly warm so I move the image there very slightly.

On Museo Silver Rag I get warm tones by default though. Lots of factors here (Paper being the largest). Good luck,

Naisan

Author Topic: best for B&W z3100, ipf 5000 or 3800 (Read 4765 times)