P25 or P45

[KAP]

I'm considering a move from 1DsmkII to a MF back. I'm wondering in the real world has anyone bought the P25 and wished they had gone for the 45, has a 25 limited you at anytime? I will be testing both soon, i'm shure the extra wow of the P45 might make me want it. but will it earn me one penny more. My work is mostly from helicopters or light aircraft.
http://homepage.mac.com/kevin_allen/Nigel/ gives an idea of what I do.

Kevin.

[pss]

I'm considering a move from 1DsmkII to a MF back. I'm wondering in the real world has anyone bought the P25 and wished they had gone for the 45, has a 25 limited you at anytime? I will be testing both soon, i'm shure the extra wow of the P45 might make me want it. but will it earn me one penny more. My work is mostly from helicopters or light aircraft.
http://homepage.mac.com/kevin_allen/Nigel/ gives an idea of what I do.

Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103767\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

if you are coming from DSLR, the P30 might be the right step up for you.....beats the P25 in resolution, area still almost twice the size of the canon, faster shooting, higher and cleaner iso and cheaper....

[KAP]

if you are coming from DSLR, the P30 might be the right step up for you.....beats the P25 in resolution, area still almost twice the size of the canon, faster shooting, higher and cleaner iso and cheaper....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I had thought about that, Phase didn't seam to want to push it, it kept coming back to the 25 or 45, I'm still thinking of the Hasselblad alternatives as well. I got the same reaction with them and the H3D 31. I started to think there was a problem with that sensor (it is the same isn't it?).
Plus with the Phase on a Mamiya the wide angle is a bit long at 35mm x1.3.

Kevin.

[pss]

I had thought about that, Phase didn't seam to want to push it, it kept coming back to the 25 or 45, I'm still thinking of the Hasselblad alternatives as well. I got the same reaction with them and the H3D 31. I started to think there was a problem with that sensor (it is the same isn't it?).
Plus with the Phase on a Mamiya the wide angle is a bit long at 35mm x1.3.

Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103789\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

well let's see why would they (both) want to sell you a back that is more expensive with less pixels (P25) and slower with higher noise and lower iso....hmmm..because we all really want a P45 to which you would switch to within a year....
the P30 is the best all around back out there right now....and the pixel/$ value is very good....if you need T/S it is not the right back...for everything else it is the perfect back and very versatile.....
the mamiya 35 is not very wide on the P30 (i have the 35 for my 645) but the long awaited 28 seems to finally become reality...it is supposed to ship within weeks....i am waiting for this and the new zoom....and my P30+ upgrade of course.....which makes the P30 a (close to) 1frame/sec 31mpix up to 1600 DMFback for less then the P25 and a lot less the P45

[Ed Jack]

well let's see why would they (both) want to sell you a back that is more expensive with less pixels (P25) and slower with higher noise and lower iso....hmmm..because we all really want a P45 to which you would switch to within a year....
the P30 is the best all around back out there right now....and the pixel/$ value is very good....if you need T/S it is not the right back...for everything else it is the perfect back and very versatile.....
the mamiya 35 is not very wide on the P30 (i have the 35 for my 645) but the long awaited 28 seems to finally become reality...it is supposed to ship within weeks....i am waiting for this and the new zoom....and my P30+ upgrade of course.....which makes the P30 a (close to) 1frame/sec 31mpix up to 1600 DMFback for less then the P25 and a lot less the P45
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103813\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 Does anybody know when the P+ serries are actually out on hte market? I rather assumed that Michael would have been "beta testing" the 45+ on one of his many recent trips, but I guess not (unless non-disclosure is at work)! One reason I ask is our new found love of shooting MF digital hand held... even with long lenses! A noiseless ISO 400 would definitely be helpfull here!

Ed

[Khun_K]

Does anybody know when the P+ serries are actually out on hte market? I rather assumed that Michael would have been "beta testing" the 45+ on one of his many recent trips, but I guess not (unless non-disclosure is at work)! One reason I ask is our new found love of shooting MF digital hand held... even with long lenses! A noiseless ISO 400 would definitely be helpfull here!

Ed
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104980\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am using 1Ds MK2 and was using P25 at the same time and trade up to P45 on Contax 645, they are different cameras for different applications.  Canon is very fast to work, control and amazingly good for higher ISO setting with low noise, which medium format capture backs cannot match. I would not use the DB for ISO 400, but may be I will check the "+" version when they come out.  Unless one is looking for absolutely higher quality, I think P25 is good enough or P30. Without question you can see visible difference between P25 and P45, but I would say a P25 on a good hand is most likely to beat P45 on a regular hand. But if they are all on a good hand, most likely you can get better output.

[pss]

Does anybody know when the P+ serries are actually out on hte market? I rather assumed that Michael would have been "beta testing" the 45+ on one of his many recent trips, but I guess not (unless non-disclosure is at work)! One reason I ask is our new found love of shooting MF digital hand held... even with long lenses! A noiseless ISO 400 would definitely be helpfull here!

Ed
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104980\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the + backs should start shipping any week now (whatever that means...) i am waiting for a mamiya mount, so i am told it will be may (mamiya mounts are always last to be built...)....
compared to the 1DsmkII@1600 i actually like the 800 on the P30 better....the grain looks more film like and it holds  much more DR...is it cleaner? probably not, but i never use noise ninja or any other noise software...i always feel it just looks digital or watercolor like.....the + will gain an extra stop which will bring the P30+ into the 1dsmkII class......but of course the 5D is a bit cleaner and the new canon will be cleaner as well....
all in all the extra resolution, the extra DR (and more info in general) of the P30 makes for better high iso performance IMO and the P+ will make it even better....
the P25 is by far not as clean as the P30 and i doubt it will gain much ground (on the P30) by getting the + treatment, it is a different back for slightly different applications.....as is the P45....

[ericstaud]

Kevin,

Have you done any math about focal lengths and ASA moving from Canon to MFDBs?  You already know what lenses, F stops, and shutter speeds you use in your current work.  Equivelent MF lenses will be twice the focal length of your 1Ds.  So, shoot one shutter speed faster to get the same amount of camera shake, right?  You also need to stop down about one stop to get similar depth of field.  You've just lost two stops on a system which does not do high ASA as well as your Canon.

In the end, the resolution gains of the MFDB might be overcome by high ASA noise or camera shake.  I don't know if this will be the case for you.  I have read nothing but rave reviews about the P30.  A side by side test would be invaluable for you.

[william]

That's interesting; I'd heard that Phase always does the Contax mount last.  Which makes sense, I guess, since the Contax is no longer currently in production.

(mamiya mounts are always last to be built...)....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105038\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[pss]

That's interesting; I'd heard that Phase always does the Contax mount last.  Which makes sense, I guess, since the Contax is no longer currently in production.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

but i guess they sell more contax mounts....

[James Russell]

but i guess they sell more contax mounts....
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I got my P-30 in a Contax mount from Dave Gallagher at [a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com/home.html]http://www.captureintegration.com/home.html[/url] the moment I asked and it was shipped to me the next day.

Then again, I've never asked anything of that company that was responded to immediatly.


JR

[vgogolak]

The difference in P25 and P45 is definitely noticable. esp if you need tp go to 100% (actual pixels or dpi) Curiously I see no more noise, even possibly less with P45. (though just a tad that is easily tamed. The red parts if the crop seem to be jpg artifacts. You hardly even need sharpening is another advantage)
This shot was late in day, hand held and f4 (I likely manual overrode AF of contax which gets fooled in such background cases. For aerial work I would think the P45 a definite advantage in detail. This also 1/500 or 1/700. Unless you use a gyro, (do you?) will need to use 100 or 200 ISO even in daylight, esp if you want DOF from a f5.6 or f8 shot

I too have contax 645 and have the P45 from last Nov. I understand demos of 'plus' cameras shipping to dealers early april. My dealer said I was 'high on the list' for the production. Even so, I would think that would be a month later.

Regards
Victor

[narikin]

the P25 has a big moire problem if you shoot anything like a cityscape with brick buildings in it. P45 is much finer grid and it 95% fixes that - VERY useful point to note.

used P45s are breaking into $20 - 22k ish territory now.

agreed P30 is an excellent back too.

James Russell (above) was the biggest promoter of Leaf out there, he's now a complete convert to P30 - say something?

oh and I also recommend Capture Integration. great dealers - honest and good prices.

[KAP]

Unless you use a gyro, (do you?) will need to use 100 or 200 ISO even in daylight, esp if you want DOF from a f5.6 or f8 shot

I use a KS8 and dof isn't often a problem as most things are infinity, I use f8 -f10 only because some lenses need it to perform. Gyro's don't cure all, they cut down on vibration, but the aircraft can still be rolling and pitching.

Kevin.

[KAP]

the P25 has a big moire problem if you shoot anything like a cityscape with brick buildings in it. P45 is much finer grid and it 95% fixes that - VERY useful point to note.

used P45s are breaking into $20 - 22k ish territory now.

agreed P30 is an excellent back too.

James Russell (above) was the biggest promoter of Leaf out there, he's now a complete convert to P30 - say something?

oh and I also recommend Capture Integration. great dealers - honest and good prices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105220\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've been down the moire route with a Kodak SLR, not one I wish to repeat.
Thanks,

Kevin.

[vgogolak]

Unless you use a gyro, (do you?) will need to use 100 or 200 ISO even in daylight, esp if you want DOF from a f5.6 or f8 shot

I use a KS8 and dof isn't often a problem as most things are infinity, I use f8 -f10 only because some lenses need it to perform. Gyro's don't cure all, they cut down on vibration, but the aircraft can still be rolling and pitching.

Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105224\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If shooting at infinity and using WA then certainly pretty simple trade off between lens definition and speed.

What may be the bigger issue since P45 is FF and P30 would decrease FOV (but since FL is same the DOF is not affected. If you can find a WA that gets FOV with the P30 crop factor, then sounds like P30 is great solution. I sometimes wonder that I shouldn't have switched to P30 for speed and frame rate.

Victor

[James Russell]

the P25 has a big moire problem if you shoot anything like a cityscape with brick buildings in it. P45 is much finer grid and it 95% fixes that - VERY useful point to note.

used P45s are breaking into $20 - 22k ish territory now.

agreed P30 is an excellent back too.

James Russell (above) was the biggest promoter of Leaf out there, he's now a complete convert to P30 - say something?

oh and I also recommend Capture Integration. great dealers - honest and good prices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105220\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I still own the Leaf A-22 and in the right circumstance it can produce an amazingly beautiful file.

I learned V-8, RD, pscs, lightroom, I-view, batch processing in all kinds of third party programs, tried elseeten and at the end of the day, I needed a more stable platform that would batch and work easier.

I held off switching for a long time because I just felt I'd be trading one set of problems for another.  To my pleasent surprise, the P-30 was just off the scale easy, virtually as easy as the dslrs.

The LCD is rough, but sometimes in bright light like on a beach it works well, but C-1, tethering, stability, no freezes, no overheating, no error messages, it's just a great product and well worth the money.

I've shot nearly 20,000 frames with the P-30 and still not a problem.

I also recommend Dave Gallagher as his group really is available 24 7 which seems like an overworked phrase, but it's a fact.

They give you cell phone numbers and always answer, always have a solution.

The P-30 and Capture Integration have probably lowered my workload by 20 hours a week.

JR

[James Russell]

I still own the Leaf A-22 and in the right circumstance it can produce an amazingly beautiful file.

I learned V-8, RD, pscs, lightroom, I-view, batch processing in all kinds of third party programs, tried elseeten and at the end of the day, I needed a more stable platform that would batch and work easier.

I held off switching for a long time because I just felt I'd be trading one set of problems for another.  To my pleasent surprise, the P-30 was just off the scale easy, virtually as easy as the dslrs.

The LCD is rough, but sometimes in bright light like on a beach it works well, but C-1, tethering, stability, no freezes, no overheating, no error messages, it's just a great product and well worth the money.

I've shot nearly 20,000 frames with the P-30 and still not a problem.

I also recommend Dave Gallagher as his group really is available 24 7 which seems like an overworked phrase, but it's a fact.

They give you cell phone numbers and always answer, always have a solution.

The P-30 and Capture Integration have probably lowered my workload by 20 hours a week.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105258\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd like to add, this isn't a them or me, right or wrong decision.  For some the Leaf works well, for others it doesn't.  Probably same with the Phase, though I heard of less complaints with the Phase than other cameras.

Just because I use one camera today doesn't mean I have a dislike for anything or anyone, it just means the P-30 is working fine.

I do think that all the people competing with Phase would do themselves a favor if they rented a P-30, stuck it on a contax and went out and shot 2,000 frames on location, shot them tethered and non tethered,  came home and tried to process them to jpegs overnight.  Then do that with thier own cameras, backs and software.  

I think it would open their eyes to a lot.

JR

[damien]

I use a P25 at ISO 400 all the time. I like the look it gives me in the same way I liked the grain of Tri x Pan. I tried the P30 for a couple of thousand frames and I liked it more. It is a better all rounder and the best bit is the chroma in the shadows is not muted nearly as much as the P25 file. The only trouble is Phase wanted £5000 or $9500 for me to cross grade to a 'cheaper' back. If I had the choice now of P25, P30 and P45 it would be the P30 I'd choose, and I suggest you go down that route.

Damien.

[clawery]

Here is a link to several comparison test that we have done.
Hope it will help:

http://www.captureintegration.com/comparison/index.html

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration

(404)234-5195   Cell
(404)522-7662  Office
(404)522-7929   Fax
www.captureintegration.com
chris@captureintegration.com

PHASE ONE PARTNER OF THE YEAR - 2006