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Author Topic: Advanced Profiling Solution  (Read 7036 times)

ricgal

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Advanced Profiling Solution
« on: February 20, 2007, 11:17:31 am »

I ordered it when I ordered the printer and it turned up seperately today.  It consists of an Eye One display box Hp branded  and the APS cd in the back.  I am hoping it will build much more sophisticated profiles but at present the software will not see the printer-  
I am reinstalling drivers etc but may have to give support a buzz.

For £500 I would have expected some kind of book or documentation but there is only a rudimentry Quickstart guide
The Eye One Display does not appear to allow you to choose a custom colour temp for your display either 6500K being the only option
The software seems disturbingly wizard based (dumbed down)  but I ca'nt access the interesting bits (no of target patches etc) until I persuade it that the printer is connected.
Will report more over next few days
All in all I am yet to be impressed
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 11:25:17 am by ricgal »
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Panascape

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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2007, 11:34:47 am »

Mine tunred up on friday and basically all we get is a rebadged version of the Gretag Eye One software with an HP interface, less feature for a higher price seeing as how we already paid for the Eye One in the printer.

You will also find that the advanced options as well as custome white balance settings for monitor profiling have been removed from APS.
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ricgal

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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2007, 01:43:14 pm »

Quote
Mine tunred up on friday and basically all we get is a rebadged version of the Gretag Eye One software with an HP interface, less feature for a higher price seeing as how we already paid for the Eye One in the printer.

You will also find that the advanced options as well as custome white balance settings for monitor profiling have been removed from APS.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101920\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Did the software recognise the printer?-  I am on ethernet and it is not-  I may try USB
Do we have the options of bigger targets for profiling?
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Panascape

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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2007, 02:26:50 pm »

mine had no problem finding the printer. APS is running on a XP box connected to the printer via ethernet. The APS will give the option to use a maximum of 924 patches, basically rebadged Eye One.
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denis_

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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2007, 03:17:02 pm »

Mine didn't recognised the printer -also connected with ethernet- till I updated to the last version (1.10 I believe).
Haven't had much time to use it yet but on a couple of tries the largest targets produced much better prints.

denis
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ricgal

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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2007, 06:33:09 pm »

Quote
Mine didn't recognised the printer -also connected with ethernet- till I updated to the last version (1.10 I believe).
Haven't had much time to use it yet but on a couple of tries the largest targets produced much better prints.

denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks-  i will see what version i have and upgrade if need be...........................
Upgrade did the job!
I am doing my first 900 patch profile of HPR... tis late so i will have to test tomorrow!
Cheers for advice
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 07:05:16 pm by ricgal »
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rdonson

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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2007, 08:28:51 pm »

I'm curious about the license that comes with the APS.  In particular, are you free to share the profiles you create with the larger number of patches?  Assuming that once calibrated and linearized all Z3100 will perform quite similarly the new profiles might be able to be used by other Z3100 owners (license permitting).
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Regards,
Ron

Christopher

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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2007, 02:50:09 am »

Quote
I'm curious about the license that comes with the APS.  In particular, are you free to share the profiles you create with the larger number of patches?  Assuming that once calibrated and linearized all Z3100 will perform quite similarly the new profiles might be able to be used by other Z3100 owners (license permitting).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102049\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I really think it is more a waste of money, than anything else.
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rdonson

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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2007, 07:59:03 am »

Quote
I really think it is more a waste of money, than anything else.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102110\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The crippled colorimeter certainly speaks to that point.
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Regards,
Ron

Mussi_Spectraflow

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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2007, 02:33:11 pm »

Quote
The crippled colorimeter certainly speaks to that point.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102130\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wouldn't say it's crippled.... It is spec'd different than the standard eye one, but the profiles I've gotten from it are spot on compared to our DTP70. I think that in real world usage it's going to perform just fine. I think the quality of the software is going to be of more importance. my 2 cents.

Julian Mussi
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Julian Mussi
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Panascape

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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2007, 02:45:41 pm »

Not crippled, just limited to basic functionality without all the nice advanced controls and flexibility which does make it pretty idiot proof.

The best paer about it is you can print the traget files, which are provided as Tiff"s, on any device and then use the Z3100 and the APS software to read them and create a profile.

This in effect turns the z3100 into a sort of automated profile reader. Nice to know that if they don't get the printing problem sorted that I still have a R90 000.00 profiling system.
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ricgal

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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2007, 04:43:00 pm »

It all depends how much profiling you do i guess.
Being able to print a resonable sized target and automatically measure it saves me a lot of time it also takes the errors out of the equation that occur with a hand held device.
Not including the software with the printer as standard seems a little half assed of HP-  still i guess they are not in it for the love!
The combination of the new firmware and the APS revoltionised the quality of my profiles on HPR 308I installed both on the same day so i am not sure how much to contibute to either party.
Results on HPID Universal Gloss are still a little disappointing though so compared with HPID premium gloss and Satin though.

In the attached chart the wireframe semitransparent trucolour is the new profile and the solid blue and the blue 2d is the old

Where are the Tiff files for the targets accessed Panascape?
Cheers
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 04:43:53 pm by ricgal »
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Panascape

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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2007, 04:52:44 pm »

There is a folder called "test charts" in the APS folder in the programs folder on a pc. The targets are in the printers sub folder.
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ricgal

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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2007, 06:06:16 pm »

Quote
There is a folder called "test charts" in the APS folder in the programs folder on a pc. The targets are in the printers sub folder.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks- just the job!
Call me naive but who the hell is going to spend a shed load of cash on profiling software then use the Easy profile option with about 10 patches?

I presume the CMYK target is for accurate proofing and would have to be used from within a RIP not the HP driver

Is there any point of making a profile with more than 900 patches-  i wonder if HP would upgrade the software to allow this.. A forum member very kndly made me a profile from a Colorport 1700 patch target i measured and sent them from my 4000.  I am comparing it carefully with my Colorelite 700 patch profiles to see how it compares in real world use.  Monaco Profiler seems very expensive.

I am just printing a target on my 7500 to measure on the HP-  Great fun if you do'nt get out much!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 06:30:30 pm by ricgal »
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marty m

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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2007, 10:10:03 pm »

Quote
I wouldn't say it's crippled.... It is spec'd different than the standard eye one, but the profiles I've gotten from it are spot on compared to our DTP70. I think that in real world usage it's going to perform just fine. I think the quality of the software is going to be of more importance. my 2 cents.
Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So what is the SPECIFIC difference between the profiles with the normal target that is provided with the Z3100 with around 450 patches, and the APS target with 950?  

I am an advanced amateur.  Yes, I want accurate profiles.  But I am probably not as demanding as some of you.  Would I see a difference in profiles using approx 450 versus about 950 patches?

If the answer is affirmative, then it is criminal for HP to not include the 950 patches with the standard software.  HP would force me to pay close to $1000 just to get a larger patch set for profiling, since I have no need to CMYK.
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Christopher

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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2007, 05:26:27 am »

Quote
So what is the SPECIFIC difference between the profiles with the normal target that is provided with the Z3100 with around 450 patches, and the APS target with 950? 

I am an advanced amateur.  Yes, I want accurate profiles.  But I am probably not as demanding as some of you.  Would I see a difference in profiles using approx 450 versus about 950 patches?

If the answer is affirmative, then it is criminal for HP to not include the 950 patches with the standard software.  HP would force me to pay close to $1000 just to get a larger patch set for profiling, since I have no need to CMYK.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102738\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


and still for 1000$ you only get 950 patches that is just sad... for that money you should at least be able to use some 1500 patch targets...
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Christopher Hauser
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adiallo

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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2007, 08:17:56 am »

One thing to keep in mind here is that color profiling, generally speaking is still more art than science. It's not just a question of more patches for better quality. Out of the millions of unique colors a printer can reproduce, arguing about the benefit of 450 vs 900 patches can seem academic. It is often times more about which colors are measured.

Imagine that you shoot exclusively fashion models from Finland. If you build your own set of measurement patches with a heavy emphassis on the range of skin tones common to your models, well you will likely get a very accurate profile--for your printing needs.

Now since we all want to print a much wider variety of tones--different subjects, different lighting, etc--the trick for profiling packages is to sample an appropriate range of colors we are likely to reproduce. In any case, since it's not practical to profile using x million patches, interpolation has to be done. Those who build profiles for a living often have said that at a certain point a higher number of patches actually yields less pleasing output.

Of course you don't want to use a target with 50 patches. But, getting back to HP profiling, I am getting more accurate shadow detail from PrintFix Pro using 255 color patches than the HP built-in (non-APS) approach that uses 464 patches. So it's not just about numbers. And what the profiling software does with those numbers matters a lot.

I've just linearized and profiled the HP using a RIP both with target patches of 268 and 1860 and various dot gain adjustments. I'll take a close look at output early next week. That should add another option to the mix.
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madmanchan

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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2007, 10:21:33 am »

Another way of saying this is that even from a single set of measurements, you can get quite different profiles, depending on the software (and algorithms) used to create the profiles. Monaco PROFILER will create different results than ProfileMaker Pro, for instance.

If you look at the Atkinson profiles for the 7800/9800, you'll find that he made a single set of measurements in most cases (using ColorPort and the X-Rite DTP70) and then imported those measurements into several different profiling packages to be able to generate different profiles and compare them.

I'm not suggesting this is feasible for the average user, but it does show how much wiggle room there is in creating profiles and the resulting quality of the profiles.
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marty m

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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2007, 05:50:48 pm »

BOTTOM LINE CONCLUSIONS.  (At least for me.)

I've been looking for an answer to two simple questions.  Below I provide my own answers to those two questions based on what I've read in this thread, and based on direct correspondence with one of you.  

Please correct me if my conclusions are wrong:

(1)  Does the spectrophotometer and the Gretag Eye-One software based on about 450 patches -- that are included with the printer -- provide accurate profiles, on a range of different papers, for an advanced amateur landscape photographer like me?  

My conclusion is that it does.  No one has said that the system built in to the printer for profiling has failed or not worked.  

(2)  Does the APS produce better results -- would an advanced amateur landscape photographer like myself see an improvement with APS?  My conclusion is no.

I already own a device and software to calibrate my monitor.  Don't need that.  

I don't need CMYK.  I don't need that feature.

My understanding is that moving up from 450 patches with the included software to 925** patches with the APS does NOT result in better profiles.  So I don't need that.

I also understand that both the software included with the printer and the APS are based on the Gretag profiling engine, and no one has asserted that the profiling engine in the APS is demonstrably more advanced than the software included with the printer.  So I don't need APS for that.

So my bottom line conclusion, from having asked many questions, is the same as that posted by Christopher.

For an advanced amateur landscape photographer like me, who doesn't need monitor calibration, doesn't do CMYK, and doesn't need more patches, that:

** The APS is a waste of money. **

My purchase of the Z3100 is premised on the assumption that the profiling system included with the Z3100 works fine, and would be comparable to the X-Rite Color Elite system I now use with the 4000.  I plan on selling the Color Elite system on Ebay.

If that last conclusion is wrong, then we are all throwing good money after bad, because a significant part of the purchase price of the printer is for the integrated ability to easily produce profiles.  

If it doesn't work, we should all be buying a different printer that doesn't include that feature, and where the price would presumably then be less.

Thanks for any comments.

** the specs for the APS claim that it includes 1,100 patches, but you have all reported it is actually 925.
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eronald

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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2007, 08:45:13 pm »

Quote
BOTTOM LINE CONCLUSIONS.  (At least for me.)


My purchase of the Z3100 is premised on the assumption that the profiling system included with the Z3100 works fine, and would be comparable to the X-Rite Color Elite system I now use with the 4000.  I plan on selling the Color Elite system on Ebay.

If that last conclusion is wrong, then we are all throwing good money after bad, because a significant part of the purchase price of the printer is for the integrated ability to easily produce profiles. 
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
l

Yes, you get decent color from th HP system, with excellent convenience. I wrote about it here:
[a href=\"http://photofeedback.blogspot.com/2007/02/idiot-proof-color-pays-off-for-hp.html]http://photofeedback.blogspot.com/2007/02/...off-for-hp.html[/url]

If you do not see any useful difference between the Pulse and the HP, you should certainly sell the Pulse. The Monaco Profiler color engine software provided wihich is cut down and supplied with Pulse has slightly different esthetics to those of EyeOne Pro and PMP which has been cut down and integrated in the Z-series.

 Neither has the abilities of the full packages, but you don't need them anyway.  Regarding hardware, the instruments themselves are comparable, I believe.

And to those who happen not to own a spectro and are reading this thread, I say - buy his Pulse off eBay, it's a nice device !

Edmund
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