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Author Topic: P30+ or P25+  (Read 5902 times)

Gary Yeowell

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P30+ or P25+
« on: February 14, 2007, 02:22:05 pm »

I presently use a Phase P20 back and some film on a Hasselbled 'V' system mostly for use for 'Getty' stock travel work and am very happy with it.  I have been shooting with the Hassy outfit some 20 years  and for some time i used a Contax 645 with film and loved that as well, however due to some film flatness and battery issues i gave up on the Contax, of course these issues don't affect digital shooting as much as a lot of battery power went into winding my 220 film holders, but i have sold the outfit and 6 lenses, shame really.

What i miss presently with the P20 is my wideangle option as my 40CFEIF is obviously limited, also i do on occasions get a small amount of fringing with this lens and the back does suffer with small amounts of moiree from time to time. Long exposures can suffer with noise to some degree with times of up to 30 seconds as i do a lot of mixed ambient dusk shooting, and sometimes in quite hot climates which obviously exasperates the issue.

I have considered the Horseman and Cambo digital shift cameras with the P20 as an option using the 24XL digitar to gain my wideangle facility, however the cost involved is at least half of an upgrade to either a P30 or P25, albeit losing the shift facility and not actually being quite as wide, but a centre filter would also lengthen my long exposures still further and so add more noise.  If i go for the P30 back i could later still get the shift camera to gain a real wide option but there are issues i believe with shifts and the P30 even though i think the long exposures suffer less with noise.

Has anyone tried both the P30/P25 options for mainly outside use, typically travel oriented imagery, dusk cityscapes, food, landscapes people etc. The file size of both is more than adequate for my use and i am leaning more toward the P25+ (when available) as i would value the larger chip area whilst viewing, also enabling slightly easier control over limited depth of field. Much of course has been made of the lack of moiree with the P30 and lack of noise but at the same time i am not sure if the fringing issues are the same with wides between 6-9 micron backs, also i dont know if the P25+  back has improved moiree and or noise. Lastly i keep reading how great the P30 files are straight out of the camera, with little post production, is this an asset only of the P30?  Any insights would be greatly appreciated.  PS if anyone wants to get an idea of the kind of stuff i shoot then please visit 'www.gettyimages.com' and click 'creative' then type 'yeowell'  in the search box.

Kind regards, Gary.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 04:35:32 pm by Gary Yeowell »
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med007

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P30+ or P25+
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2007, 03:29:18 pm »

Quote
I have considered the Horseman and Cambo digital shift cameras with the P20 as an option using the 24XL digitar to gain my wideangle facility, however the cost involved is at least half of an upgrade to either a P30 or P25, albeit losing the shift facility and not actually being quite as wide, but a centre filter would also lengthen my long exposures still further and so add more noise still. If i go for the P30 back i could later still get the shift camera to gain a real wide option but there are issues i believe with shifts and the P30 even though i think the long exposures suffer less with noise.

Has anyone tried both the P30/P25 options for mainly outside use, typically travel oriented imagery, dusk cityscapes, food, landscapes people etc. The file size of both is more than adequate for my use and i am leaning more toward the P25+ (when available) as i would value the larger chip area whilst viewing, also enabling slightly easier control over limited depth of field. Much of course has been made of the lack of moiree with the P30 and lack of noise but at the same time i am not sure if the fringing issues are the same with wides between 6-9 micron backs, also i dont know if the P25+  back has improved moiree and or noise. Lastly i keep reading how great the P30 files are straight out of the camera, with little post production, is this an asset only of the P30?  Any insights would be greatly appreciated.  PS if anyone wants to get an idea of the kind of stuff i shoot then please visit 'www.gettyimages.com' and type 'yeowell'  in the search box.

Kind regards, Gary.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Gary,

with no comment on the actual P25/P30 choice, the fine, albeit expensive 28 mm HR

Rehnier discusses in [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14696&st=0] this [/url]thread.

"i am using the e75 together with a siimilar camera than the alpa12swa. its a gottschalt camera together with a set of sinar rodenstock HR and digital optics starting with 28mm.
works very good so far.
the 28hr is more expansive, but:
it allows you movements up or sidewards of app. 12mm,- so the image circle of the optic is somehow bigger than the 24xl.
it has less fall-off so you can work without centerfilter, with the 24xk you should use a cf.
the 28hr is sharp till the edges even at f4, the 24xl wants too be stopped down 2stops for best performance.

the color casts should not have effect if you work in b+w,
i think they are not strong enough to change the luminance significant."

So this might help you make a decision. If you are going to shift, BTW, look at whether the back allows that without color change for that back.

Asher Kelman

http://www.openphottographyforums.com
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pss

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P30+ or P25+
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2007, 05:09:19 pm »

phase says the P30 is not made for T/S...you might be fine, but you will probably run into problems....i used to have the P20 and loved it, now have the P30 and it is in a different league....i guess what you really want is the P45...if speed and high iso are not on your list and T/S are...you should look at P25/P45....
i think that the P25 has similar characteristics as the P20, just like the P30 and the P45 (a later generation chip)....from what i see with the P30, i would not go "back" to the P25...
the color out of the box with the P30 is phantastic, i am already drooling for the +...hard to believe it might get better, but that is what i thought of my P20 (not only resolution..color, DR, noise,....)

i have to say that i also looked into the emotion backs and the files are amazing as well, if i would not need the high iso now and then, i might have gone with the emotion....it is VERY nice....and both 22 and 75 do not have any problems with T/S and can be adapted to any camera via adapters....
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John_Black

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P30+ or P25+
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2007, 05:43:52 pm »

Does Phase One ship a focus screen to go with the selected back?  I'm wondering how the 1.3x crop is illustrated in the viewfinder (in my case - on a Mamiya AFD2).
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benedmonson

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P30+ or P25+
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2007, 06:46:28 pm »

Quote
Does Phase One ship a focus screen to go with the selected back?  I'm wondering how the 1.3x crop is illustrated in the viewfinder (in my case - on a Mamiya AFD2).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100951\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


John,
Phase One backs ship with (5) Cardboard view finder masks that mount under your screen. It's a very simple and quick fix to see only the area that the back covers. If you decide to shoot some film you can remove the view finder mask quite quickly.
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marcwilson

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P30+ or P25+
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2007, 07:02:14 pm »

gary..just as a possible interim solution untiul you are completely convinced to go the expensive upgrade path for the back that is right for what you do you could simply use your current back on one of the shift cameras such as a silvestri with a couple of nikon wide primes...this would basically be a cheaper vesion of the cambo plus 24xlmm lens..not quite the same quality but...

This may be totally of the mark for you but you never know.

Marc
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Gary Yeowell

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P30+ or P25+
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2007, 07:57:19 pm »

Thanks to all replies so far, please keep them coming.  

Asher, I like the idea of the 28HR being fully usable wide open and without centre filter as this enables me shorter exposure times and thus less noise. Any idea if this lens produces colour fringing with a P20 both shifted and unshifted?

Paul,  How would you best describe 'in a different league' to the P20, does it look less digital with finer gradations, better DR, better colour, less artifacts including noise/moiree, improved long exposure performance. Do you think it would produce generally a comparable or better image than a P25+ ?

Marc  Interesting idea, not beyond the realms of usability, something i may look into as a short term solution.

Lastly i may have stressed the need for 'shift', it would be nice to have but not completely necessary, wideangle is however, but more importantly is the overall performance characteristics between the two backs and the 'issues' they inevitably carry.

Thanks all.

Gary.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 08:02:14 pm by Gary Yeowell »
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pss

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P30+ or P25+
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2007, 08:05:43 pm »

Quote
Does Phase One ship a focus screen to go with the selected back?  I'm wondering how the 1.3x crop is illustrated in the viewfinder (in my case - on a Mamiya AFD2).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100951\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
for the 645 it ships with several foil masks...the RZ adapter comes with masks for all phase backs...all sizes...
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pss

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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2007, 08:10:52 pm »

Quote
Thanks to all replies so far, please keep them coming. 

Paul,  How would you best describe 'in a different league' to the P20, does it look less digital with finer gradations, better DR, better colour, less artifacts including noise/moiree, improved long exposure performance. Do you think it would produce generally a comparable or better image than a P25+ ?

Gary.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100969\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yes, yes, yes and yes
i don't know how the P25+ is built or how it will compare to the P30....
what i meant was that the P30 has a newer chip then the P25....
but if you are looking to do T/S you really should not look at the P30 or P30+ anyway....
P25(+) or P45(+) or maybe the emotion22 or 75....
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Gary Yeowell

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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2007, 08:25:41 pm »

Quote
yes, yes, yes and yes
i don't know how the P25+ is built or how it will compare to the P30....
what i meant was that the P30 has a newer chip then the P25....
but if you are looking to do T/S you really should not look at the P30 or P30+ anyway....
P25(+) or P45(+) or maybe the emotion22 or 75....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100972\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Paul, regarding the shift issue, it really is of far less importance than all of the other factors i listed above.  The wideangle capability is very important and the shift element was born out of the idea of using a shift camera to get a wider lens than my present 40mm. From your reply it sounds like the P30 is doing it for you in terms of file quality, just wished someone new if a P25+ back offers some of these qualities as my 40mm on a P30 is still not that wide and therefore i may still require some kind of wide digital lens, albeit unshifted. The P45 may well answer all my questions but it's really more than i want to pay at the present time.

Gary.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 08:39:20 pm by Gary Yeowell »
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Gary Yeowell

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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2007, 03:33:00 pm »

As a conclusion to this thread, today i ordered my P30+ back as an upgrade to my P20. After much discussion with my supplier i have decided to order it in Contax fitting, and have re-aquired my old Contax 645 outfit which i sold and have regretted ever since. Luckily a friend who i sold most of it to has offered it back so i will be using the P30+  with a 35/80/120/140 as before, should be good.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 03:38:55 pm by Gary Yeowell »
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pss

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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2007, 03:37:30 pm »

Quote
As a conclusion to this thread, today i ordered my P30+ back as an upgrade to my P20. After much discussion with my supplier i have decided to order it in Contax fitting, and have re-aquired my old Contax 645 outfit which i sold and have regretted ever since. Luckily a friend who i sold it to has offered it back so i will be using the P30 with a 35/80/120/140 as before, should be good.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

great choice...you will be very happy....
fyi: as much as i am a fan of C1...try LR...V1 really is wonderful and work great with the P30 files...
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Gary Yeowell

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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2007, 03:41:10 pm »

Quote
great choice...you will be very happy....
fyi: as much as i am a fan of C1...try LR...V1 really is wonderful and work great with the P30 files...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101705\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Will do, C1 is superb because it's so simple, but LR sounds interesting.

Thanks, Gary.
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