Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22  (Read 7108 times)

StuartR

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 95
    • http://www.stuartrichardson.com
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« on: February 05, 2007, 12:37:42 am »

Hello everyone. I was doing some thinking about getting a digital back for my Rollei 6008AF, and I was hoping that you all might have some good advice. I hadn't really considered medium format digital before due to the initial costs, but I realized that if I sold some of my equipment (such as that which will become superfluous if I bought an eMotion), the costs no longer look so severe. For digital, I am currently using the Leica Digital Module-R on a Leica R9. This back was about 5000 dollars when I bought it, and the camera and lenses for it are also quite pricey. I would probably get at least 4000 dollars for the DMR, and several thousand more for the camera and lenses. If I sold this kit, along with some other stuff I am not using much, I think the costs would not be so daunting. Let me just state right out that this is not something that I absolutely need, and I basically view it as an exchange of a lot of great stuff for one even better thing. I would look for a used back if I could find one, or hopefully capitalize on some sort of demo or trade in offer if there is one (for example, some manufacturers give huge discounts for trading in any digital back, so buying a very old digital MF back for a few thousand and then trading it in to get the 7000 dollar discount or however much they are might be a good idea.).

I am leaning towards the eMotion 22 because I would like an untethered solution for field work. This camera would serve double duty -- I would use it both in the studio and in the field. The eMotion 22 seems like a good balance between ease of use and imaging performance. The size of the sensor is also an important consideration for me. Although I have the 40mm lens, I would not want to have to deal with a strong crop factor, such as there is with the P20, the phase one back often available with the 6008af. Additionally, Sinar actively supports F&H/Rollei, so the back would be compatible with my current camera, or the Hy6 if I ever decided to go that route. I already have 40mm, 80mm and 180mm lenses for the 6008AF, so the camera and lens investment is already taken care of. I know that the list price of the eMotion 22 is around 24000, but is that how much they generally sell for? In any case, if people had suggestions as to the sanity of this idea or opinions on the suitability of the back, I would be greatful for the help. The main fields that I would use the back in would be portraiture and landscape/travel photography, but I would use it for any work that I could do with it.

Thanks very much,

Stuart
Logged

thsinar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2066
    • http://www.sinarcameras.com
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2007, 01:36:19 am »

Quote
Hello everyone. I was doing some thinking about getting a digital back for my Rollei 6008AF, and I was hoping that you all might have some good advice. I hadn't really considered medium format digital before due to the initial costs, but I realized that if I sold some of my equipment (such as that which will become superfluous if I bought an eMotion), the costs no longer look so severe. For digital, I am currently using the Leica Digital Module-R on a Leica R9. This back was about 5000 dollars when I bought it, and the camera and lenses for it are also quite pricey. I would probably get at least 4000 dollars for the DMR, and several thousand more for the camera and lenses. If I sold this kit, along with some other stuff I am not using much, I think the costs would not be so daunting. Let me just state right out that this is not something that I absolutely need, and I basically view it as an exchange of a lot of great stuff for one even better thing. I would look for a used back if I could find one, or hopefully capitalize on some sort of demo or trade in offer if there is one (for example, some manufacturers give huge discounts for trading in any digital back, so buying a very old digital MF back for a few thousand and then trading it in to get the 7000 dollar discount or however much they are might be a good idea.).

I am leaning towards the eMotion 22 because I would like an untethered solution for field work. This camera would serve double duty -- I would use it both in the studio and in the field. The eMotion 22 seems like a good balance between ease of use and imaging performance. The size of the sensor is also an important consideration for me. Although I have the 40mm lens, I would not want to have to deal with a strong crop factor, such as there is with the P20, the phase one back often available with the 6008af. Additionally, Sinar actively supports F&H/Rollei, so the back would be compatible with my current camera, or the Hy6 if I ever decided to go that route. I already have 40mm, 80mm and 180mm lenses for the 6008AF, so the camera and lens investment is already taken care of. I know that the list price of the eMotion 22 is around 24000, but is that how much they generally sell for? In any case, if people had suggestions as to the sanity of this idea or opinions on the suitability of the back, I would be greatful for the help. The main fields that I would use the back in would be portraiture and landscape/travel photography, but I would use it for any work that I could do with it.

Thanks very much,

Stuart
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99225\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Stuart,

I am glad that you plan the jump into a MFDB and that you are considering an eMotion 22.

1. Please be informed that the price of the eMotion 22 has dropped as per January '07 and that our recommended list price is around Euro 14'450.-, adapter plate for Rollei 6008 included (ab. US$ 18'800.-). This price might slightly vary from country to country.

2. Trade-ins: Sinar is effectively offering trade-in opportunities. This might be different from country to county as well but basically it applies under certain conditions:

- Only digital area sensor camera backs are accepted for trade-ins – no line scan backs.
 
- The returned digital camera back must be complete and in good working conditions.

I would in any case suggest you to get in touch with your local distributor in order to get the right information.

I am at your disposal for any question you might have.

Best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
Logged
Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com

DSaffir

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
    • http://www.davidsaffir.com
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2007, 01:37:30 am »

Stuart -

it's a big advantage to be able to shoot untethered. all major manf make good equipment. one of the factors not much talked about is software - try before you buy. (i use p25 and capture one)

David
Logged

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2007, 04:46:25 am »

Quote
Stuart -

it's a big advantage to be able to shoot untethered. all major manf make good equipment. one of the factors not much talked about is software - try before you buy. (i use p25 and capture one)

David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99234\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i think also that the workflow is very important. here the eMotion 22+75 have to offer aside the sinar software Capture Shop  for tethered or untethered use the softwares written by brumbaer, which are providing a DNG workflow based on the sinwar raw files. so you can use for the final conversions all the existing dng compatible softwares as iridients raw converter, lightroom or photoshops acr.
the quality of the dng conversion from brumbaers software is the best i know, as one result it allows you very good highlight recovery ( this does not depend so much on the conversion software,- it depends mainly in the info which is written in the provided DNG files...) and it provides a very fast workflow with the e22.
i use an e22 since 1 year without any problems.
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

godtfred

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 293
    • http://
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2007, 06:11:15 am »

Quote
( this does not depend so much on the conversion software,- it depends mainly in the info which is written in the provided DNG files...)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I disagree with this, both are in my view equally important.

Of course you need for the data to be there in the first place (as in a decent raw file, for instance a .dng type) but the software is equally important... I find that ACR is far better at hightlight recovery than other RAW tools I have used, (but not the best raw converter when all other aspects are taken into account, then it depends on where the raw file comes from.)

-axel
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 06:11:29 am by godtfred »
Logged
Axel Bauer
godtfred.com H2|M679CS|P45+

thsinar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2066
    • http://www.sinarcameras.com
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2007, 06:31:21 am »

Quote
I disagree with this, both are in my view equally important.

Of course you need for the data to be there in the first place (as in a decent raw file, for instance a .dng type) but the software is equally important... I find that ACR is far better at hightlight recovery than other RAW tools I have used, (but not the best raw converter when all other aspects are taken into account, then it depends on where the raw file comes from.)

-axel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99252\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Axel,

what Rainer is trying to say, is that the Brumbaer "eMotion DNG Converter" is having the best highlight recovery: it converts ONLY Sinar eMotion Raw files, not any other. From that converter you will have the best possible dng. files, with a highlight recovery of minimum one stop, if not 1 1/2 - 2 stops. From there, you can go to any dng. compatible software, as mentioned by Rainer, with the best possible information included. Try it out wish some Sinar .sti files.
Obviously, the information in the initial raws (.sti) from the capture has to be there (and is).
Further, and this is one very important point, the Brumbaer "eMotion DNG Converter" is providing the fastest possible workflow.

Best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AH Switzerland
Logged
Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2007, 07:07:05 am »

i will try to explain why .dng is not .dng.

the info which can be used by the raw converter software ( as ACR ) who reads out the dng data differs a lot. so one can write a "good" or a "bad" dng file- this depends on how clever the dng conversion software ( a.e. Brumbaers eMotion dngconverter ) is written.

although there are many more things to consider meanwhile converting the raw data to dng data,( noise in longtime exposures, hot pixels, inverting white shading files ), i describe here the differences in the highlight recovery, as far i know it....

regarding highlight recovery:
the "bad" dng will not contain info in any of the three color channels as soon one channel is blown out, to avoid heavy color casts in blown out aereas.
 the "good" one will contain the remaining info in the two ( or in the last  one ) color channels which has not reached or exceeded level "255".
if the .dng conversion is not done in a very sophisticated way, the remaining info, which is clipped in one or two channels, will result in a  a heavy color cast , ( mostly to magenta or cyan ).
so the dng converter has to translate the remaining color channels in data which can be read by the conversion software as  neutral color info.  
from this info the raw ( dng ) converter software can restore the clipped parts of the image, which will not contain color info but it will have detail, this is what you usually need in windows, clouds and so on....  and this detail should be mostly free of any unwanted color casts.

easy written dngs will have two ways to use this overblown data:
one way is to  cut out at the moment all the three channels, as soon one is blown out.
so not any software can restore here clipped data, cause its simply nothing there to be restored.

the second way, which is used by some other softwares, holds the information of the one or two channel which are still under "255", but it does not correct the data. here the raw converter can restore detail- data, but the result will have a strong magenta or cyan cast in this restored highlight zones.

usually the softwares who write dng as a sideproduct use one of the last two ways, because the dng conversion is just a "side" product,- and so it is made in a simple way.
stephan brumbaers software is written only for this dng conversion and use a very complex algorythm to do this conversions, and the results are reflecting that.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 03:54:39 pm by rehnniar »
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

StuartR

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 95
    • http://www.stuartrichardson.com
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2007, 10:32:06 am »

Thank you all for the help. I am certainly glad to hear that the price has been lowered down to about 18,000. That will make it even more realistic for me. I have called Sinarbron in the US, and I am waiting for them to call me back. Hopefully they can advise a good course of action for me.

As for the software issues, I am glad to see the discussion taking place. I am used to a DNG workflow at the moment, so I am happy that Brumbaer has made a program to turn the eMotion raw files into DNG. I am currently using FlexColor and Capture One LE. I use flex color because it is the standard software for the Leica DMR, and it seems to work fairly well except for high ISO images. But I just wanted to make sure about something. Brumbaer's software just converts the eMotion files into DNG, and then you need to use another program to convert them to TIFF or JPEG etc right? So a normal workflow would be eMotion ---> Brumbaer's DNG program ----> ACR/Capture One/FlexColor etc ------> Photoshop. Please correct me if I am wrong here...
Also, how does the functionality of Brumbaer's program compare to the newly released conversion software from Sinar?
Logged

godtfred

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 293
    • http://
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2007, 10:50:43 am »

Quote
what Rainer is trying to say
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99254\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I understand what Rainer is trying to say  

All I wanted to point out was that this statement:

"as one result it allows you very good highlight recovery (this does not depend so much on the conversion software,- it depends mainly in the info which is written in the provided DNG files...)"

Can also be understood in such a way that that the conversion software is not so important, but if the well written/converted .dng file is also loaded into software with superb highlight recoverytools you can utilize this information, and I felt need to clarify this/disagree if the opinion was otherwise.

Mostly language going on here I think  
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 12:08:41 pm by godtfred »
Logged
Axel Bauer
godtfred.com H2|M679CS|P45+

william

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 472
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2007, 11:24:28 am »

Good luck.  FWIW, I went thru almost the exact same process -- I had the Leica DMR and a bunch of lenses, and decided to sell it all to put toward an MF back.  In my case, I went with the Phase P30, for the reasons explained in a review I wrote for this site.  The eMotion and the Aptus were also close contenders, however.

Quote
Hello everyone. I was doing some thinking about getting a digital back for my Rollei 6008AF, and I was hoping that you all might have some good advice. I hadn't really considered medium format digital before due to the initial costs, but I realized that if I sold some of my equipment (such as that which will become superfluous if I bought an eMotion), the costs no longer look so severe. For digital, I am currently using the Leica Digital Module-R on a Leica R9. This back was about 5000 dollars when I bought it, and the camera and lenses for it are also quite pricey. I would probably get at least 4000 dollars for the DMR, and several thousand more for the camera and lenses. If I sold this kit, along with some other stuff I am not using much, I think the costs would not be so daunting. Let me just state right out that this is not something that I absolutely need, and I basically view it as an exchange of a lot of great stuff for one even better thing. I would look for a used back if I could find one, or hopefully capitalize on some sort of demo or trade in offer if there is one (for example, some manufacturers give huge discounts for trading in any digital back, so buying a very old digital MF back for a few thousand and then trading it in to get the 7000 dollar discount or however much they are might be a good idea.).

I am leaning towards the eMotion 22 because I would like an untethered solution for field work. This camera would serve double duty -- I would use it both in the studio and in the field. The eMotion 22 seems like a good balance between ease of use and imaging performance. The size of the sensor is also an important consideration for me. Although I have the 40mm lens, I would not want to have to deal with a strong crop factor, such as there is with the P20, the phase one back often available with the 6008af. Additionally, Sinar actively supports F&H/Rollei, so the back would be compatible with my current camera, or the Hy6 if I ever decided to go that route. I already have 40mm, 80mm and 180mm lenses for the 6008AF, so the camera and lens investment is already taken care of. I know that the list price of the eMotion 22 is around 24000, but is that how much they generally sell for? In any case, if people had suggestions as to the sanity of this idea or opinions on the suitability of the back, I would be greatful for the help. The main fields that I would use the back in would be portraiture and landscape/travel photography, but I would use it for any work that I could do with it.

Thanks very much,

Stuart
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99225\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2007, 12:15:44 pm »

Quote
22 ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99225\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Away from the software !

Yes I love my E22

No I wouldnt have it without having a DSLR too

ISO 50 is what I use mine at.  Software may push it up to 400 at the max but useable 200 is more likely

Muddle the slow ISO and minimal DOF and poor AF of MF and you dont have a walkabout point and shoot whatever hassy tell you

Further i like the ability to chage systems via adapter plates because im not stuck to a system that I am now locked out of (h1 mount) - I can walk away from that system if I choose or someone comes up with something better

I still use the eyelike software which is pretty minimalistic but very powerful once you have got across its steep learning curve

It can produce 600px contact sheet jpgs very quick but if you want anything else you have to export to tiff which is a 'walk away from the compter and post cr*p on this site and have a cup of tea' job

SMM
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

william

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 472
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2007, 12:38:23 pm »

Yeah, given the ever-changing nature of the MF camera business, the adapter plate system on Sinar (and Imacon) backs would be a major benefit.  I have no idea why Leaf and Phase don't do so as well.

Quote
Further i like the ability to chage systems via adapter plates because im not stuck to a system that I am now locked out of (h1 mount) - I can walk away from that system if I choose or someone comes up with something better

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99303\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2007, 12:55:43 pm »

Quote
So a normal workflow would be eMotion ---> Brumbaer's DNG program ----> ACR/Capture One/FlexColor etc ------> Photoshop. Please correct me if I am wrong here...
Also, how does the functionality of Brumbaer's program compare to the newly released conversion software from Sinar?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99278\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yes so it is. i usually do the following:
i use the emotion reader ( another sw by stephan ) to read the raw data from the back or the cf card. this data still contains the original raw files, divided in image informationand black reference information  ( . IA + .BR files ) . i save this data for archival storage to hold it for the future. than i convert this raw files with the dngconverter to .dng files  and go on with the raw converter i actually use ( at the moment mostly lightroom ).

if i used my shift camera i usually have shot also white reference files to correct possible color shifts or lense fall off  ( more urgent for the e75 than for the e22 ). this white shadings are automatically put in the right place in the dng conversion chain if i convert the raw files as a batch, what i usually do.
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

photoflup

  • Guest
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2007, 08:55:30 am »

Quote
Yeah, given the ever-changing nature of the MF camera business, the adapter plate system on Sinar (and Imacon) backs would be a major benefit.  I have no idea why Leaf and Phase don't do so as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99306\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On the subject of Brumbaer's emotion DNG, does anyone know if it's possible to export to it any emotion files previously downloaded in Capture Shop?

Philip
Logged

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2442
    • Pepperanddust
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2007, 10:49:41 am »

Quote
Yeah, given the ever-changing nature of the MF camera business, the adapter plate system on Sinar (and Imacon) backs would be a major benefit.  I have no idea why Leaf and Phase don't do so as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99306\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



I don't get that part either. It would be a major asset to both Phase's products as well as Leaf's.

It is possible so why the hassle when you want to mount your back on another system?

I for one would gladly pay for any adapter to be able to put my back on another camera system of choice (provided it stays in a reasonable range).
Logged

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2007, 11:16:56 am »

Quote
On the subject of Brumbaer's emotion DNG, does anyone know if it's possible to export to it any emotion files previously downloaded in Capture Shop?

Philip
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112187\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yes, the emotion converter accepts and converts also  capture shop
as well as capture pro data to dng.
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

pss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 960
    • http://www.schefz.com
Need some advice...considering an eMotion 22
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2007, 01:40:01 pm »

Quote
Hello everyone. I was doing some thinking about getting a digital back for my Rollei 6008AF, and I was hoping that you all might have some good advice. I hadn't really considered medium format digital before due to the initial costs, but I realized that if I sold some of my equipment (such as that which will become superfluous if I bought an eMotion), the costs no longer look so severe. For digital, I am currently using the Leica Digital Module-R on a Leica R9. This back was about 5000 dollars when I bought it, and the camera and lenses for it are also quite pricey. I would probably get at least 4000 dollars for the DMR, and several thousand more for the camera and lenses. If I sold this kit, along with some other stuff I am not using much, I think the costs would not be so daunting. Let me just state right out that this is not something that I absolutely need, and I basically view it as an exchange of a lot of great stuff for one even better thing. I would look for a used back if I could find one, or hopefully capitalize on some sort of demo or trade in offer if there is one (for example, some manufacturers give huge discounts for trading in any digital back, so buying a very old digital MF back for a few thousand and then trading it in to get the 7000 dollar discount or however much they are might be a good idea.).

I am leaning towards the eMotion 22 because I would like an untethered solution for field work. This camera would serve double duty -- I would use it both in the studio and in the field. The eMotion 22 seems like a good balance between ease of use and imaging performance. The size of the sensor is also an important consideration for me. Although I have the 40mm lens, I would not want to have to deal with a strong crop factor, such as there is with the P20, the phase one back often available with the 6008af. Additionally, Sinar actively supports F&H/Rollei, so the back would be compatible with my current camera, or the Hy6 if I ever decided to go that route. I already have 40mm, 80mm and 180mm lenses for the 6008AF, so the camera and lens investment is already taken care of. I know that the list price of the eMotion 22 is around 24000, but is that how much they generally sell for? In any case, if people had suggestions as to the sanity of this idea or opinions on the suitability of the back, I would be greatful for the help. The main fields that I would use the back in would be portraiture and landscape/travel photography, but I would use it for any work that I could do with it.

Thanks very much,

Stuart
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99225\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


stuart...i had the p20 with 2 6008af bodies, 40, 80, 90, 180mm schneider lenses....when i started looking for upgrades to the P20, the emotion 22 was really the only choice (i looked at imacon as well, but did not like the files that much)...i really liked the emotion, great files, the back works great.....but then i checked out the P30 and the combination of file quality, speed, workflow, clean high asa,...was too much in comparison with the emotion....it also helped that after selling all the rollei stuff i ended up with 2 mamiya 645afds with lenses, a RZ and the P30....the emotion would have cost me at least 20000 and the files from the P30 are better IMO...the emotion 75 is a different story, has higher asa, larger area (then the P30) and would compare a little more favorably to the P30...but it was even more....

in my opinion the emotion backs are phantastic, they are a little pricey (don't forget 2500 for the adapter for the 6008! ouch!) but they deliver great files....after testing all the backs, i realized that  as much as cameras(or more so lenses) contribute to the final picture, it is hard for the frontend to make up for the deficiencies of the back/files....so i went with the best back (P30 imo) and the second best camera/lens frontend (nothing beats schneider imo) the mamiya 645 and RZ do not make me lust for the schneiders and they let me use the P30.....if the P30 was available for the 6008 i would still be shooting with it.....

check out the emotions, they might be the solution for you...they are great....
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up