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Author Topic: HDR Panos with Medium Format Digital Back?  (Read 6566 times)

Cooknn

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HDR Panos with Medium Format Digital Back?
« on: February 02, 2007, 07:27:59 pm »

I probably don't make enough money shooting photographs to be hanging in this forum...  Anyways, I am dreaming of a rig that can shoot the interior of a (luxury) home with enough dynamic range to capture the living area as well as see through the windows/sliding glass doors to the pool or waterfront view without having to shoot multiple exposures.  I've read about the Leaf Aptus 22.  "Raw HDR files of 16 bits capture a 12-stop dynamic range, producing every nuance in the shadows and highlights, and achieving consistently smooth and accurate colors."  12-Stop Dynamic Range?!

...So if I go down that road I'm looking at about $25K.  Then there's the Hasselblad H-1 for around $1800.  Not sure what lens I would want.

I stand to make about $25K this year shooting <cough>real estate pano's</cough> part time.  But - I spend way too much time masking windows and (open) doors together from multiple exposures in Photoshop  I would much rather invest in a bleeding edge rig that could pay for itself by saving me time - that is if I could indeed shoot pictures with enough dynamic range so that I wouldn't have to mask.  If this is even within the realm of possibility, what hardware would get me the most bang for my buck?
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mcfoto

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HDR Panos with Medium Format Digital Back?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2007, 08:22:42 pm »

Hi
Leaf is going to replace the Aptus 22 with the Aptus 54S. This is a speed increase from 1.2 to .87 f/s. If you can get a discounted Aptus 22 that is a great back. Depends on how much you shoot but I would consider the ZD back that is about to be released at around $9000.00 USD. Both the Aptus and the ZD use the same dalsa chip. I own a ZD camera and really enjoy it. The only thing with the ZD is that the iso range is best between 50-100. Best to call the MAC group about this as they deal with both Mamiya & Leaf. Get your Mamiya lenses on ebay.
Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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savagegibson

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HDR Panos with Medium Format Digital Back?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2007, 08:33:15 pm »

Quote
Anyways, I am dreaming of a rig that can shoot the interior of a (luxury) home with enough dynamic range to capture the living area as well as see through the windows/sliding glass doors to the pool or waterfront view without having to shoot multiple exposures.  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98947\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As someone who owns an Aptus 22 and shoot architecture and interiors for a living, the answer to your questions is, "keep dreaming." If you want a way to balance exposures inside and out without using masks, you need to invest in lighting gear more than another camera. It's way cheaper.
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Cooknn

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HDR Panos with Medium Format Digital Back?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2007, 10:26:54 pm »

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As someone who owns an Aptus 22 and shoot architecture and interiors for a living, the answer to your questions is, "keep dreaming." If you want a way to balance exposures inside and out without using masks, you need to invest in lighting gear more than another camera. It's way cheaper.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98954\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I could not have wished for more qualified feedback savagegibson.  Thank you    Can you recommend lighting gear that is portable and quick to set up / break down, and gets the job done?  I suppose the fact that I'm shooting 360° should be factored into this decision making process as well...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 10:27:57 pm by Cooknn »
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rainer_v

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HDR Panos with Medium Format Digital Back?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2007, 06:37:02 am »

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I could not have wished for more qualified feedback savagegibson.  Thank you    Can you recommend lighting gear that is portable and quick to set up / break down, and gets the job done?  I suppose the fact that I'm shooting 360° should be factored into this decision making process as well...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98965\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
forget it with 360 panos. no other way than that you are already doing.
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rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

AndrewDyer

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HDR Panos with Medium Format Digital Back?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2007, 06:50:10 am »

Have you considered using Photomatix (or something like it) to combine your bracketed images?
http://www.hdrsoft.com/
Check it out. I'm not sure how much quicker it will be for you compared to masking windows etc but it does a good job.
You will of course need some stitching software as well... something like Realviz Stitcher Pro.
http://stitcher.realviz.com/panorama-softw...ng-software.php
which can stitch 16bit files together.
Best of luck.
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godtfred

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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2007, 07:15:23 am »

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Depends on how much you shoot but I would consider the ZD back that is about to be released at around $9000.00 USD. Both the Aptus and the ZD use the same dalsa chip. I own a ZD camera and really enjoy it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98953\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Brochure for the ZD camera and back says the ZD system employs 14 bit A/D conversion, and saves as 12 bit... Is this inferior to Leaf/Hass./Phase (true 16?) And if so, what are your experiences with the gradations and ability to recover highlights/shadows in the raw files?

-axel
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Axel Bauer
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Cooknn

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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2007, 09:36:50 am »

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As someone who owns an Aptus 22 and shoot architecture and interiors for a living, the answer to your questions is, "keep dreaming."
Allow me to revisit this comment if you will - so the statement by Leaf regarding 12-Stops of Dynamic Range is just exaggeration?  Because unless I understand the definition of a "Stop" incorrectly, when referring to exposure speed on my D70s that gets me all the way from 1/3 to 1/180th of a second.  That is usually sufficient to capture enough dynamic range for an architectural interior shot for me.

Quote
forget it with 360 panos. no other way than that you are already doing.
Buzzkill  

Quote
Have you considered using Photomatix (or something like it) to combine your bracketed images?
http://www.hdrsoft.com/
Check it out. I'm not sure how much quicker it will be for you compared to masking windows etc but it does a good job.
You will of course need some stitching software as well... something like Realviz Stitcher Pro.
http://stitcher.realviz.com/panorama-softw...ng-software.php
which can stitch 16bit files together.
Best of luck.
Thanks.  My workflow has morphed through all available methods...  As I become more critical of my work, I become less impressed with automated solutions like Photomatix or CS2's Merge to HDR.  Currently I use an application called PTBatch to do my stitching.  I believe it handles 16-bit images, but that doesn't seem to be much of an issue after my education in this thread  
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MichaelEzra

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HDR Panos with Medium Format Digital Back?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2007, 10:20:53 am »

The absolutely best software for panoramic stitching is AutoPano Pro (www.autopano.net)

Michael Ezra
www.michaelezra.com
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Quentin

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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2007, 01:22:28 pm »

Quote
The Brochure for the ZD camera and back says the ZD system employs 14 bit A/D conversion, and saves as 12 bit... Is this inferior to Leaf/Hass./Phase (true 16?) And if so, what are your experiences with the gradations and ability to recover highlights/shadows in the raw files?

-axel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Its often difficult to make sense of the advantage or otherwise of higher bit depths.  For example, I use a drum scanner that is nominally a 12 bit device, but its dynamic range blows away supposedly superior and newer 16bit  CCD scanners.  

My own experience with the ZD it that its dynamic range is superb (decoded with SilkyPix) with a lot of leeway to recover highlights.  Maybe the Leaf is better, but I have not used it so I can't say.  

Quentin
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 01:24:31 pm by Quentin »
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Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, Arbitrato

LasseDPF

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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2007, 01:27:51 pm »

If 360 panos are what you do, take a look at the Panoscan camera
Expensive but impressive.

http://www.panoscan.com/


Lasse

Quote
...So if I go down that road I'm looking at about $25K.  Then there's the Hasselblad H-1 for around $1800.  Not sure what lens I would want.

I stand to make about $25K this year shooting <cough>real estate pano's</cough> part time.  But - I spend way too much time masking windows and (open) doors together from multiple exposures in Photoshop  I would much rather invest in a bleeding edge rig that could pay for itself by saving me time - that is if I could indeed shoot pictures with enough dynamic range so that I wouldn't have to mask.  If this is even within the realm of possibility, what hardware would get me the most bang for my buck?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98947\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Lasse Morkhagen

Cooknn

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HDR Panos with Medium Format Digital Back?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2007, 02:21:03 pm »

Quote
If 360 panos are what you do, take a look at the Panoscan camera
Expensive but impressive.
I've looked at this, but although they talk of High Dynamic Range with their Panoscan camera, they still direct their customers to shoot multiple exposures to combine with PhotoMatix.  I can do that now (in Photoshop) for a fraction of the price of that rig.
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Robin Casady

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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2007, 05:58:59 pm »

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Its often difficult to make sense of the advantage or otherwise of higher bit depths.  For example, I use a drum scanner that is nominally a 12 bit device, but its dynamic range blows away supposedly superior and newer 16bit  CCD scanners. 

My understanding is that bit depth does not equal dynamic range. If you have great dynamic range, high bit depth is useful for holding all the gradations with in it. However, DR has to do with the range brightness the sensor or film can handle, not the numbers that represent values.

The analogy I've heard is to think of a photo-site on a sensor as a kind of well. At the low range, the issue is how many photons it takes to register a voltage. In other words, how low a light level will be recorded above absolute black? At the high end, how many photons can the well hold before it overflows -- how much light can it handle before it is saturated? DR is the range between these two.

Bit level comes into play when the output from the sensor is converted to digital representation. The signal level from the sensor can be recorded as an 8 bit number, a 12 bit number, a 16 bit number, etc. It has nothing to do with what kind of range the sensor is capable of. Bit level determines how finely the brightness levels are divided. So, if you have a wide DR, it is useful to have a high bit level, but bit level does not determine DR.

That is how I understand it. If I am in error, I would appreciate correction or clarification.

Regards,
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com
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mcfoto

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HDR Panos with Medium Format Digital Back?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2007, 06:17:00 pm »

Quote
The Brochure for the ZD camera and back says the ZD system employs 14 bit A/D conversion, and saves as 12 bit... Is this inferior to Leaf/Hass./Phase (true 16?) And if so, what are your experiences with the gradations and ability to recover highlights/shadows in the raw files?

-axel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
Yes the Aptus 22 is better as it has better software in tethered mode. I use my ZD mostly for editorial and stock shots. Most of the time I shoot handheld. The bit depth is better on the Aptus and if you are not pushing the channels in PS you would never know. Our new web site will be up in less than a week and there are images shot with both the Apus 22 & Mamiya ZD. I find the capture rate faster with the ZD than the Aptus 22 ( 645 AFDII body ). I think this because it is one unit as both claim that they capture at 1.2 F/S. The Aptus 22 performs better on the Hasselblad H2 body in terms of speed. I have witnessed the H2 cature 44 shot/min vrs 38 for the 645 AFDII (+/- 2 ). That is holding down the shutter for a minute for a test. Now if they market the ZD back for $9000.00 USD & discount the lenses or AFDII body it would be a good start.
Thanks Denis
montalbetticampbell.com
Our new web site will be up in a few days.
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Denis Montalbetti
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pss

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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2007, 06:26:48 pm »

what will the panos be used for? i have shot my share of panos but they were always for the web or for CD...it really depends on the distribution....so the discussion about 12 or 16 bit is completely irrelevant....that difference might show up in a fine art print, but i doubt that you will do this....the biggest difference between 12 and 16 bit is in the shadow detail, so maybe you could pull out more in CS2, but it still won't bring the outside in.....a ZD will give you more DR then a DSLR, maybe a phase or leaf back will give you more, but not enough to pull the outside in....2 exposures is really the only way...there is a lot that can be done with actions and different plug-ins or standalone software....so i guess get the fastest mac out there and find a way to automate the process....a ZD with a 645 AF and 35mm would be a great starting point....but really a DSLR would be fine as well....also the wider the lens, the less files to deal with...
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Cooknn

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« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2007, 11:21:18 pm »

Quote
what will the panos be used for? i have shot my share of panos but they were always for the web or for CD...it really depends on the distribution....so the discussion about 12 or 16 bit is completely irrelevant...
They get displayed on the web.  Example attached.  I usually shoot 3 or 4 sets of exposures and manually mask/blend them together.  The dream was that a Medium Format Digital Camera Back capable of 16-bit output and 12-stops of range could get me what you're seeing below without all that work.  This thread has been very educational that's for sure.  Great bunch of photographers here
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Christopher

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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2007, 06:00:18 am »

Ok a diffrent thing. Sorry I didn't get what you are using in the Moment, but another idea would be something like www.roundshot.ch , there are all kind of diffrent thing. It starts with their brilliant but kind of expensive Roundshot D3, or with a very cheap version with something like the VR Drive Panorama Set. The first one would be for web images pherhaps a little bit an over kill ;-) ( But I if I spend 25,000 or so than I would get the 5 more for something really great. Yes the ZD is mor mobily but quality wise, they are worlds apart.)

The VR drive would still need you to work in PS or other HDR tools, but it would take all the images for you in a minute. ( You can change it from single shot, 3 shots or 5 shots for extreme HDR Images.)
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Christopher Hauser
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