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Author Topic: Digital Black & White  (Read 3364 times)

AntonP

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Digital Black & White
« on: January 23, 2007, 12:44:45 am »

Hi,
I am wondering if when I desaturate the colors in ACR whether I can get higher resolution since the demosaicing of the Beyer rgb pattern needs no color information if the end result is luminance. I am familliar with converting to B & W post ACR using channels etc but I cannot help but think that higher resolution should be possible from a sensor if the rgb photosites need not be demosaiced for color. Does anyone know if this approach has been taken or is available or forthcoming from somewhere?
Clearly the color information is still available in ACR even after desaturating - because the temperature and tint controls still affect the grayscale. It would be nice to have the option to process RAW data as B&W and use all the available photosites for higher resolution, or am I just dreaming in B & W?
Anton
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John Sheehy

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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2007, 09:16:14 am »

Quote
It would be nice to have the option to process RAW data as B&W and use all the available photosites for higher resolution, or am I just dreaming in B & W?
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If nothing is done to interpolate the 2 missing colors at each photosite, then what the RAW data is, is a potential checkerboard pattern depending on the color in a given area.  Neighboring pixels are only equally sensitive for most digitals when the combination of subject color and lighting has a magenta cast; 2x as much red light as green, and blue somewhere in between.  If you try to accomplish this by multiplying the red-filtered pixels by 2, and the blue-filtered pixels by 1.4, for example, the sensitivity will be equal for white and grey subjects in daylight, but you will still get a checkerboard pattern when there is a moderate degree of saturation in the subjects.

A good demosaicing actually increases luminance resolution; that's the main point of it (as opposed to merely interpolating the missing colors at each pixel from the neighbors).  If your subject is bright red, then only the red-filtered pixels are going to have much overt luminance information.  Demosaicing tries to use the trends in the blue and green pixels, which are slightly sensitive to red, to fill in the luminance detail.  

IMO, a good B&W RAW converter would have an overlay of a high-pass filtered version of a luminance-oriented demosaicing, to apply to something like a channel mixer that worked directly on the RAW color channels (without any of the hue shifts or color-selective saturation boosts performed in typical conversions).  Or, perhaps a channel mixer with 6 sliders instead of 3; one for high-pass and one for low-pass for each channel.  That way, you can get the general tonal curves from just the red channel if you want, but also get some pixel-level luminance detail from the channels you don't want to affect the tonal curve.

That said, I don't think a typical color conversion is the best place to start for a B&W; a conversion that didn't alter saturation and hue from the RAW data would be the best choice; then what you get is more like what the camera actually captures in the RAW data; three interleaved B&W images with three different color filters.  A good B&W RAW converter is needed, IMO.  Color-oriented converters are not doing as good a job as a dedicated one could do.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 09:17:31 am by John Sheehy »
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AntonP

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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2007, 11:39:53 pm »

John,
Many thanks for such a cogent reply. You have described in the technical terms that I lack what I have somewhat suspected, that there might be a place for a Raw Converter dedicated to B &W. You reply seems to suggest that such a dedicated converter does not yet exist. In your experience, do you have a preference for a Raw Converter when B & W output is required? To date I have only used Adobe Camera raw, which seems somewhat limited, but perhaps I need to refine my technique. Any suggestions are most welcome.
Anton

Quote
If nothing is done to interpolate the 2 missing colors at each photosite, then what the RAW data is, is a potential checkerboard pattern depending on the color in a given area.  Neighboring pixels are only equally sensitive for most digitals when the combination of subject color and lighting has a magenta cast; 2x as much red light as green, and blue somewhere in between.  If you try to accomplish this by multiplying the red-filtered pixels by 2, and the blue-filtered pixels by 1.4, for example, the sensitivity will be equal for white and grey subjects in daylight, but you will still get a checkerboard pattern when there is a moderate degree of saturation in the subjects.

A good demosaicing actually increases luminance resolution; that's the main point of it (as opposed to merely interpolating the missing colors at each pixel from the neighbors).  If your subject is bright red, then only the red-filtered pixels are going to have much overt luminance information.  Demosaicing tries to use the trends in the blue and green pixels, which are slightly sensitive to red, to fill in the luminance detail. 

IMO, a good B&W RAW converter would have an overlay of a high-pass filtered version of a luminance-oriented demosaicing, to apply to something like a channel mixer that worked directly on the RAW color channels (without any of the hue shifts or color-selective saturation boosts performed in typical conversions).  Or, perhaps a channel mixer with 6 sliders instead of 3; one for high-pass and one for low-pass for each channel.  That way, you can get the general tonal curves from just the red channel if you want, but also get some pixel-level luminance detail from the channels you don't want to affect the tonal curve.

That said, I don't think a typical color conversion is the best place to start for a B&W; a conversion that didn't alter saturation and hue from the RAW data would be the best choice; then what you get is more like what the camera actually captures in the RAW data; three interleaved B&W images with three different color filters.  A good B&W RAW converter is needed, IMO.  Color-oriented converters are not doing as good a job as a dedicated one could do.
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DarkPenguin

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Digital Black & White
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2007, 12:49:07 am »

Digital Outback Photo has an article on using a special B+W profile with Capture One to do B+W.  It is kind of neat.  God help you trying to find the article on that site.  But it is there somewhere.
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Richowens

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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2007, 01:06:35 am »

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Forsh

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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2007, 06:49:05 am »

I've used the Digital Outback BW Raw profile. It is wonderful to have a 100% RAW BW workflow. I highly recommend trying it.

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« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 12:37:24 pm by Forsh »
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