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Author Topic: Kayak?, Inflatable?, Hobie SOT? for on water work.  (Read 8152 times)

Lust4Life

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Kayak?, Inflatable?, Hobie SOT? for on water work.
« on: January 11, 2007, 07:31:25 am »

Ok, so we have a 4x4, a camper and all of our photo gear and head off to Maine.  Sure we could hiike the trails but what about all of those coastal and inland lake  shots you could get that most others miss if we were just on the water with our camera?  Or what about the landscape of that island in the middle of the lake - how would the view look from there?

Thus, the reason for this post.

What have my fellow obsessed photographers found to get them and their gear on the coast, lakes and streams for that shot that land bound photographers will miss?

Given:  One person, expensive digital camera and 3 lenses, light meter, fill flash.  Must be able to be put on top of car, in car or on top of pop-up camper by one person - weight limits of unit are about 60 pounds due to being 60 years old and not wanting to bust my back getting a unit on top of the car!  

I've been evaluating kayaks -both rigid, sit on, sit in and inflatable, canoes, inflatable fishing "pontoons", etc.

I've ruled out the canoes as their weight is generally an issue, the energy expended to propell them is substantially greater that a kayak and I've found them to be no more stable than a good kayak with initial and secondary stability features.  Also close to ruling out inflatable fishing pontoons due to the set up and take down time required - I'm not a patient person and this would drive me bonkers after just a few times.  Plus it removes the element of spontanaeity!

The Hobie Kayak model Revolution - called a fishing kayak due to it's high stability.
(http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/models_revolution.html) is quite interesting but has the limitations of being heavy (58#) and is a sit on top unit exposing you and your gear to the elements.  It does have an 8" twist and seal hatch with dry bag that could stow a camera and a couple of lenses out of harms way, but if you get hit by a wave you're gonna get wet, and cold even with your gear protected.  Cost of a decent dry suit runs about $800 and the Hobie isn't cheap, but no more than a composite/fiberglass kayak (about $1,600).  It has a unique Penguin type of propolsion system that seems very effiecent and interesting, but a paddle is less complicated and less prone to break - KISS logic.

Traditional kayaks like the Current Designs Kestrel 140 in TSC material weighs in at 44#, (http://user1039303.wx15.registeredsite.com/)has initial and secondary stability (Which I did manage to defeat with very modest effort and found myself upside down in the water!  But I'm not an expert kayaker and I expect it's stability would improve as my skill set does.)  These have the advantage of being protected from the waist down by the hatch cover you are enclosed in - water proof jacket and the water rolls over you and the kayak if you get hit with an unexpected wave or wake.

Inflatables - look interesting except for the set up and take down time.  Have not been able to get on one to test it out.

Ok, there are some of my initial thoughts - now I'd like to hear yours.

tsjanik

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Kayak?, Inflatable?, Hobie SOT? for on water work.
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2007, 09:11:25 am »

As they say for cameras “Horses for courses”.    There is no boat ideal for all conditions; add a camera into the equation and it really complicates the situation.  Hatches are not really accessible on the water.  If you are transporting a camera through rough seas to another location (say an island) a kayak is ideal; if you plan on taking shots from the water, you would have carry the camera in a dry bag between your legs or lashed on the deck.  I would never use an expensive camera without a waterproof housing on a boat except in the calmest of conditions.  I have 4 kayaks, a surfski and a canoe. The most versatile is easily the canoe.  No you can’t use it in really rough conditions, but you wouldn’t be able to use a camera under those conditions either.  Canoes can be quite light.  Consider the Wenonah Fisherman is 36lb http://www.wenonah.com/.   Canoes can be quite fast as well.

The Hobie looks interesting, but it’s heavy, shallows could be a real problem and I’ll bet it is really slow.
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Lust4Life

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Kayak?, Inflatable?, Hobie SOT? for on water work.
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2007, 09:43:39 am »

Tshanik,

Actually, the Hobie is quite fast!  I was really surprised by it.  

From your experience it sounds like I need to rethink the canoe logic - could carry a lot more gear but it would be useless if I want to get through the surf and out to some offshore island or structures (Coast of Washington state where my Son lives or Maine where I'm headed this spring).

You have an idea that has merit - waterproof housing.  I've not looked into these - suggestions on a decent unit for the Canon 1DsMkII?

Jack
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 09:44:56 am by Lust4Life »
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BernardLanguillier

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Kayak?, Inflatable?, Hobie SOT? for on water work.
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2007, 09:47:02 am »

I have shot from a 2 seater Kayak a few times this year on the sea in Japan and New Zealand and found it pretty challenging indeed.

I had put my D80 + 18-200 VR in a dry bag hatched in front of me, but the waves made it pretty scary to take it out while at sea. Doable,  but a bit scary, and it was only a D80.

Getting tack sharp images without a VR/IS lens with a lot of DoF is IMHO difficult.

Another thing to consider is that since you are very low on the water, reflection from the sun on the water can be a problem in some cases. I would advice against using a filter, but then again the risk of having water projections on the lens front element is scary as well.

Cheers,
Bernard

Robert Roaldi

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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2007, 10:14:00 am »

Have a look at Poke Boat. I have never used one but they claim low weight and ultra-stability because of the hull design.
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tsjanik

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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2007, 12:14:42 pm »

You have an idea that has merit - waterproof housing.  I've not looked into these - suggestions on a decent unit for the Canon 1DsMkII?

Jack
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[/quote]
Hi Jack:

Ikelite is pretty the much the standard underwater housing; I don’t use Canon equipment so I can’t comment on specifics.   My approach has always been to take a camera I can afford to lose and for me, a 1Ds MkII would not qualify; you might consider a 10D or XT as a disposable back-up for use on the water.  Paddling on lakes and protected coastal inlets is a very different activity compared to going through the coastal surf, currents and cold water in Washington State.  If you are traveling and want a boat with you to use when you happen upon a lake or cove that catches your interest, I think the canoe is the best choice.  If you want to paddle under more dangerous conditions (i.e., the Washington Pacific coast), I would suggest renting a boat from local experts and seeking their advice.

Tom
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Paul Kay

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Kayak?, Inflatable?, Hobie SOT? for on water work.
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2007, 02:06:24 pm »

I'll get the vested interest bit out of the way first - I do actually import Seacam housings into the UK and Ireland. But do read on because I do use them to shoot not only underwater but just above it too!

As far as I'm aware, currently there are only three manufacturers of housings for the 1D series of cameras (and the MkII cameras are subtly different from the MkI cameras so a housing will fit either one or the other - usually both but with modification as appropriate). They are Seacam, Subal (both Austrian) and Sea & Sea, although I am unsure whether this is still available. There may be others out there but I haven't come across them if so.

I use my own housed 1DS cameras for quite a lot for very low angle scenics whilst in the water myself and find this to be a very effective way of shooting without having any concerns over the camera getting wet. However there are several things to bear in mind - the housings are VERY expensive, they need good ports to shoot through and these need to be kept droplet free which is not easy, and they are all heavy - unless you are Superman you need to be standing on the seabed for extended use or to attach some form of buoyancy device to hold the camera housing just out of the water.

I attach a couple of examples - the boat shot was with a 24 L and the scenic with a 100 macro.[attachment=1519:attachment][attachment=1520:attachment]
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jhensley

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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2007, 08:44:44 pm »

I started using a kayak for bird photography in Morro Bay (California) some time back. The problem I had was as I would approach a bird I would have to put down the paddle to pick up the camera, then put down the camera to pick up the paddle to change position to recompose etc.  

That was what sparked my interest in Hobie kayaks. The prospect of hands free (or very nearly hands free) manuevering was very exciting. I've had an outback and currently have an adventure. I'm looking closely at a revolution. I also do some fishing beyond the surfline and would haven't had the nerve to take my DSLRs for those trips. I think the revolution might change that. It has a large hatch that is accesable just in front of the mirage drive (pedals).   Hobies are heavy and will hit your 60 pound limit but photography from a hobie is so much more rewarding than a conventional paddle kayak.  

I don't use a waterproof housing, because I typically use a long lense. I have tried several "water resistant" coverings that have so far protected my 20d and 5d.
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Lust4Life

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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2007, 08:34:44 am »

Quote from: jhensley,Jan 30 2007, 01:44 AM

 I've had an outback and currently have an adventure. I'm looking closely at a revolution.
------------

Please define why you are considering changing from an Adventure to the Revolution?  I've been looking at both and get the impression that the Revolution would have more stability.  Not sure if that is correct, thus I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I find the Hobie in logic the best for conditions where the water is not rough - calm lakes.  But for coastline ocean work I'm concerned about the open cockpit verse a skirted cockpit on a Wilderness Systems Cape Horn or a Current Designs Kestrel 140 TCS.  There I would be enclosed and the water would wash over me rather than pour into the sit on top area.

Jack
« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 08:37:40 am by Lust4Life »
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BryanHansel

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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2007, 11:04:46 am »

I shoot a lot from watercraft both in the Boundary Waters and on Lake Superior, where I guide kayaking. Most on the water shots look something like: water, thin bit of land, sky. Pretty boring. Slightly more exciting is the shot that looks like: kayak (or canoe), water, thin bit of land, sky. The most exciting on the water shots usually involve a paddler and a rock wall or something in the background taking up the space. And, of course, there are different options.
Having spent time in Maine, I think that shots from shore and from the top of mountains are the way to go if you're only going to be there for one trip.

Boatwise, my 16' canoe weighs 32 pounds, so I don't think you can count out canoes for a weight issue. You just need to find different canoes. A canoe is much easier to work out of for pictures. You can kneel in the bilge, which increases stability and you can lay out your gear in front of you which makes it just as easy to work with your camera gear as it is on shore.

For a kayak, if you're planning on paddling along the Maine coast, you should really be looking into a sea kayak vs. the Kestral or other similar kayaks. I shoot photos on Lake Superior, which is really an inland sea in a 21.5" wide sea kayak. But even then, if waves are much bigger than 1.5' to 2' it becomes extremely difficult to shoot from. But I wouldn't want to be along the Maine coast if conditions kicked up in anything but a sea kayak for safety reasons. And going through surf, I definitely want a sea kayak.

For gear storage, I've always used Sealline bags with foam wrapped around the inside of the bags to protect the gear. On my kayak, my camera is strapped down under the bungie on the kayak inside the Sealline bag, which makes it easy to get to. I've used this arrangement on all my long distance kayaking trips and it works nicely. In my canoe I use a Sealline Boundary 35 HD day pack to hold the gear. Works swell.

My advice would be to try many different types of boats in the conditions that you expect to be shooting in and figure out which one you like best. And for coastal kayaking, I assume you're trained. If not, get the training.
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Bryan Hansel
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DarkPenguin

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Kayak?, Inflatable?, Hobie SOT? for on water work.
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2007, 12:33:45 pm »

Bryan,

What type of gear (specifically clothing) do I need to put my boat on Superior?  The last time I was up at tettegouche people were kayaking on as placid a Superior as I have ever seen.  As water that calm would still not be enough to keep me from rolling over I'm concerned about clothing.  I don't want to freeze to death.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 12:33:59 pm by DarkPenguin »
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John Camp

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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2007, 02:21:58 pm »

What Bryan said.

I've spent quite a bit of time in canoes, including 2400 miles solo on a single trip...and the best on-water shots were always taken from about fifty feet off shore; they were best when you were actually shooting back across something else, like a channel marker or a sternwheeler. I can understand wanting perhaps to go explore an island across rough water, and for that, I guess, a kayak would be best (though I have little experience with kayaks) and forget the photography on the way.

Like Bryan, I've canoed a bit in the Boundary Waters, and carry the camera in a waterproof float bag which you can get at any canoe place. If you dump, you recover it, no harm done. Though I've never dumped in flatwater when I wasn't screwing around; I once did the photography for a newspaper reporter writing a story about a guy who hunted turtles for a living (for restaurants.) He worked out of a small row boat, and we tracked him in my canoe; we could maneuver around him for shots and get close enough to talk comfortably, without interfering with his efforts to catch snappers...

I have a couple of canoes, including a fifteen-foot Bell canoe which weighs, I think, 35 pounds and which I can carry like a lunch box (I'm 62.) Bell also makes an "Angler" canoe that's designed for stability, and actually has seats in it. See here:

http://bellcanoe.com/products/canoes/angler.html

My problem with this kind of boat is that in my heart, I suspect it's less stable than a regular canoe, and more likely to dump. It's also heavier, at fifty-plus pounds.

Your problem actually has a lot of aspects to it. If you're going by yourself, a kayak is reasonable in terms of weight. If there are two or you, or you want to be able to paddle tandem, then kayaks are going to be quite a bit heavier than a light 16-foot canoe. I think canoes are better to shoot from because you're higher off the water, but if the water is rough, kayaks are better. On the other hand, I've dealt very well with rough water and photography, by staying off the water.  

JC
« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 02:22:50 pm by John Camp »
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BryanHansel

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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2007, 11:44:38 am »

Quote
Bryan,

What type of gear (specifically clothing) do I need to put my boat on Superior?  The last time I was up at tettegouche people were kayaking on as placid a Superior as I have ever seen.  As water that calm would still not be enough to keep me from rolling over I'm concerned about clothing.  I don't want to freeze to death.
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I'm going to give you one of those it depends answers. The problem with Superior is that it has an average annual temp of 40 F, so it's cold. But in the summer, depending on where you are paddling, it can get up to 60 to 75 F. This last summer on the North Shore, we had temps up in the 70 F for about three weeks. Right now, Superior is at 36 F, and I'm debating about going out this afternoon.

So, that said before going out on Superior make sure that you can roll you kayak or if you can't but also if you can that you have a solid paddle float reentry. Or paddle with someone else and make sure that you can do a T-rescue or otherwise.

Clothing: When the water is brutal until the air is too warm to stand it, I would recommend wearing a dry-suit. In the summer months, I recommend a 3 or 4 mil wetsuit Farmer John style and if you think that you are going to go over alot, then a wetsuit jacket over that. In the summer, I often wear a light rash guard with a neoprene core and shorts. (Hopefully, I'm not coming out of my boat if I flip.) But, I think a neoprene Farmer John is minimum for safety.

Also: paddle float, pump, VHF, flares, spare paddle, etc... All the normal safety gear. I've watched this lake go from flat to big waves over the course of a morning. I've also seen it calm as can be for a week at a time.
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Bryan Hansel
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DarkPenguin

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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2007, 05:12:30 pm »

Thanks for the information!  Sounds like my gear shopping isn't done yet.
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BryanHansel

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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2007, 10:46:02 am »

Quote
Thanks for the information!  Sounds like my gear shopping isn't done yet.
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Drop me a line if you're interested in getting some instruction. At the start of June, there's going to be a pretty cool two day course getting people up to the level they need to be to start paddling on Superior.
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Bryan Hansel
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duranash

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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2007, 10:53:37 pm »

Folbot  Might give these a look.  We own a Greenland II and have found it very stable.  We like the folding capability since we own/tow a 5th-wheel trailer and its not easy to get a rigid boat on the truck roof.  I must admit we have't used the boat much in the past couple of years though.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 11:05:00 pm by duranash »
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jhensley

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« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2007, 04:37:26 pm »

[attachment=1746:attachment][attachment=1747:attachment]
Quote
I've had an outback and currently have an adventure. I'm looking closely at a revolution.
------------
Please define why you are considering changing from an Adventure to the Revolution?  I've been looking at both and get the impression that the Revolution would have more stability.  Not sure if that is correct, thus I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Jack
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Both Hobies have a large forward hatch that works perfectly with padded sealine bags that were mentioned in previous replies but the hatch in the Adventure can't be accessed while under way. The hatch in the Revolution can be easily and safely reached without fear of tipping.

John
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Lust4Life

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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2007, 06:57:29 am »

John,

I went to a local dealer and tried the Hobie Adventure out in their swimming pool.  Found it quite fast and stable in the pool BUT I did not feel "connected" to the boat.  With kayaks I've had in the past I really enjoyed the sensation that the boat and I were one, particularily when going through rough surf.  

With the Hobie I just sitting on top of the hull and could not get a feeling of being one with it in the pool.  I expect the sensation would be worse when getting tossed about in the surf.

As much of my kayaking requires going through the surf, the Hobie isn't going to work for me; Maine, FL Keys, Washington/Oregon/BC coast.  If I were going to be strictly on calm water, it would be a candidate.

Jack

framah

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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2007, 12:47:23 pm »

I have had a Poke boat for about  15 years now and I used to do alot of shooting from it whenever I went down to the lower end of Delaware to Trap Pond State Park. This boat is really only for inland waters. When I moved up here to Maine, I tried it along the coast and while I did actually make it out to a small island off Blue Hill ,  it took all I had to work the waves so I was not being broadsided and swamped.  I was REALLY glad to be back on land after that trip!!  It isn't a sea worthy boat.

As to weight, it is really light and an old geezer like you and I can easily put it onto a roof rack or carry it on your shoulder to the put in point.

You do sit down in the boat which is part of its stability.  It has a weight load of 350 lbs.

I think my boat weighs about 30 lbs or so.  They make a kevlar one that is lighter still.

Do check out their site.
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