Cambo Wide DS or 4 x 5?

[jklotz]

I shoot a lot of interiors. Started out with a 5D and t/s lens, eventualy moved up to a contax 645 with a P25, and recently tried the hartlblie 45mm Super Rotator. I've come to the realazation there is no "cheap" way to do it right. I've decided to go with a large format system, but find the whole thing very confusing. I'm on a limited budget, relatevely speaking, and want to make sure I make the right decesion. I'd really appriciate some help. The way I see it, there are 3 options:

A) The cambo wds, Alpa or similar, (Arca Swiss come out soon?)

B ) a newer 6 x 9 view camera or

C) used 4 x 5, like a sinar p2, with a kapture group sliding back adapter.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards the p2 option, as it seems to me it has the best "bang for the buck", not to mention the most flexibility in terms of available lenses and accessories. I understand the Cambo/Apla solutions are very popular at the moment, but the lack of movements seem like enough of a disadvantage to consider the alternatives.

I'd really apriciate some advice. Thanks!

James Klotz
www.jamesklotz.com

[Kumar]

I use a Sinar F2 and a Cambo WideDS with rollfilm and a Betterlight scanback. With a P25, using a view camera with wide lenses would be very difficult, I think.
Maintaining perfectly aligned standards and focusing are the two main problems. The Cambo is extremely easy and fast to use.

Kumar

[pixjohn]

Lack of movements? I have plenty of movements with my Cambo wide DS. If there is anything lacking its the image circles with the lenses not the camera's.

I understand the Cambo/Apla solutions are very popular at the moment, but the lack of movements seem like enough of a disadvantage to consider the alternatives.

I'd really apriciate some advice. Thanks!

James Klotz
www.jamesklotz.com
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[benedmonson]

James I'm really curious as to what you didn't like about the Contax with P25 and the 45mm super rotator? This seems like a good combo to me for interiors as long as I didn't need movements. There is no substitue for an Ebony 4x5 and 90mm lens for the ultimate interiors in my humble opinion though. Add a 6x12 and 6x7 horseman back and you have the ultimate architectural interior and exterior analog picture making machine.
I'm just now moving to a Phase One P30 back, but will never give up my 4x5 completely.

Cheers,

Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com

[Morgan_Moore]

I shoot a lot of interiors. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94675\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have a sinar P2 linhof SBA and roden 47 digitar

To be honest it is a total pain

YOu are right at the limit at infinity so the bellows are pretty yukky

The sad truth is that when shooting for clients I just use my H1 and 35 and correct in PS

Now if I had clients that let me take 3 images per day or two I would use the Sinar

You will Have to shoot tethered

The image circle of lenses like the 24 digitar dont allow stitching

With the 47 you get loads of image circle and a massive 2x (44mp) file with movements

BUt it will take and hour to set up and get right

My opinion is that a sinar is just too far off the wall

Yes it gives an amazing file for comparative value - but in a commercial pressured environment forget it unless you are way cool under fire or at least try before you buy

Another value route is fotomans upcoming device

Maybe I am just not experienced enough at 54 which I had never used

Taking stitching into consideration I think the Cambo is probably in the best price point

I think cambos stitch

Good luck..

SMM

[jklotz]

I almost always shoot teathered, so this is not a problem for me. One of the things that I don't like about the cambo is that the lenses are permantly mounted, therefor can't be used in a view camera. I think the ideal would be to have both, but buying 2 sets of lenses is beyond my ability. It's a shame they didn't design it so the same lenses could be used in an Ultima and the wide ds.

Can somebody explain what the advantage to going 6 x 9 is over a 4 x 5 with a digital back?

[Morgan_Moore]

I almost always shoot teathered, so this is not a problem for me. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94754\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Funny how people come on the board and say 'this is no problem' when owners of a bit of kit are saying 'this is a problem'...

I promise using the sinar in the field is a pain espicailly with copal shutters that need reckocking between stitches

It not only the time to set up but knocks that mean  retaking the lense board resession means re-cocking the shutter without knocking the rig is a pain

And my focus is off compared to the ground glass - so you are seeing half you copmposition on the pooter

You are abslutely right that the sinar seems like a cheap route into this world but I stress that I never use mine in front of a client or without an assistant

Tethered is bad enough if you are moving the rig every shot

The routine..

Hassy H1
-press shutter

Sinar stitched image
-Compose
-close shutter
-cock shutter
-Fire shutter
-Evaluate focus on comuter
-repeat until focus correct
-Cock shutter
-Fire shutter
-slide back
-cock shutter
-Fire shutter

A minimum of 11 moves without knocking anything

Maybe you can juggle and ride a unicyle - in front of paying customers where your time is thier money - I cant

----

69 cameras are smaller and more rigid in therory and practice . gearing tends to be lower and more suited to DB chip size

duplications of lenses is indeed a PITA - in fact a master of stupid design

I am not sure but the rollei lenses may work both on the Rollie rigid bodies (6008 and hy6) and the Xact - if that is true then it is cool but I dont know

In terms of a one lense solution SILVESTRI seem to offer a modular system that operated with or with out bellows and the implied tilts

Of course them and thier dealers are suprisingly elusive for people who are after my money (I would assume) - my trail went cold once I astared getting techy with the questions

My current intended route is to go to the silvestri up to 47 and use the sinar for lenses of 100 or longer at that length with an unreccessed board it is fine shooting techtered and the gearing is no worry IMO

SMM

[jklotz]

The routine..

Hassy H1
-press shutter

Sinar stitched image
-Compose
-close shutter
-cock shutter
-Fire shutter
-Evaluate focus on comuter
-repeat until focus correct
-Cock shutter
-Fire shutter
-slide back
-cock shutter
-Fire shutter

A minimum of 11 moves without knocking anything
SMM
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Thanks Morgan, this is very helpful! Especialy the "routine" part. I'd be most interested to hear what the "routine" would be for the cambo wds. Seems to me like it might be similar, having to check focus, DOF, perspective, etc, via exposures on the computer screen. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I guess one can get ued to just about anything if need be. I shoot reguarly for a magazine where I get a day to shoot an entire house. Sounds like the 4 x 5 option may be a real challange!

[Kirk Gittings]

I shoot architecture/interiors exclusively and have since 1978.

I use Canons for much of my work and traditional 4x5 and scanned film (4x5, 120) when I need higher quality. One advantage to going to a traditional 4x5 camera and lenses is being able to use press shutters on your lenses which allow you to do multiple exposures with no movement. With traditional film of course this is primarily for multiplying flash power, but is also useful for what you describe above.

"A day for an entire house" is routine for magazine work except the really big ones. We try to give them 15 good images with maybe 4 that are killers (cover material). Though this is changing we still find most good magazines want film, though DSLR images are more than adequate for their purposes.

[Morgan_Moore]

Thanks Morgan, this is very helpful! Especialy the "routine" part. I'd be most interested to hear what the "routine" would be for the cambo wds. Seems to me like it might be similar, having to check focus, DOF, perspective, etc, via exposures on the computer screen. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I guess one can get ued to just about anything if need be. I shoot reguarly for a magazine where I get a day to shoot an entire house. Sounds like the 4 x 5 option may be a real challange!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94783\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am playing a bit but with a Cambo you can buy a 24/28/35 lense(s) and not need to stitch

With a 47 (th widest on a sinar) I imagine you will need to stitch often

Single shot capture will cut out the the need to slide and recock without a wobble

Due to the non recessed nature of the lenseboard you can recock easier - i think

The 47 is pushing a sinar to its very limits and therefore the bag bellows is crushed right up amking rise possible but virtually elliminating options for swing

Its just not nice - it is possible and the images will be excellent if you sort it

try before you buy

S

[ericstaud]

I am shooting architecture with the Alpa 12SWA, 24, 35, 47, 60 digitars, and the P45.  Tethered and untethered the shooting is faster than with my 4x5 (which I have been using professionally for 12 years).  There is also much less retouching time than with the Nikon or Canon options.

With the P45 I can shoot 6 captures adjusting each for composition, exposure, and focus in less time than it took to get the first polaroid out of my 4x5.  It is a different working method.

Calumet rents the Cambo, the digitars, and several MFDB's.  I rented the complete sytem for an annual report last January.  It all fit in an airline carry-on bag.  It is a must to rent or borrow the system before you shell out the cash.  I am sure many people would hate the user interface of a rangefinder with a small ground glass (or no ground glass), cables, batteries, guessing focus.....

Renting the Cambo will also give you a better foundation to compare the other systems and find out what your priorities are as well.

[jklotz]

Question: Does the lack of tilts and swings not bother any of you guys shooting w/ the Cambo or Alpa? Do you find that you are still having to do some perspective correction in photoshop, or are you able to get satasfactory results with the rise/fall in the camera?

[ericstaud]

Question: Does the lack of tilts and swings not bother any of you guys shooting w/ the Cambo or Alpa? Do you find that you are still having to do some perspective correction in photoshop, or are you able to get satasfactory results with the rise/fall in the camera?
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I don't really miss the swings and tilts, but it could be limiting for certain shots.

The Rise/Fall is perfect for architecture.  The bubble levels on the Alpa (and I'm sure with other cameras) are very reliable for getting vertical lines straight.  Horizontal lines are a bit more difficult sometimes, but it is not a real problem.

I have not seen any barrel or pincushion distortion.  If you have a lens with to small an image circle to shift, you may find yourself pointing the camera up or down at a subject, and then correcting the verticals in Photoshop later.

I am shopping for a longer lens now ( 60mm to 100mm range) and it is frustrating that the image cirlces remain small with the digital lenses at the longer lengths.  With a 4x5 camera most image cirlces on the normal to tele lenses are huge.  For me, the ideal image circle would be 115mm.  This allows you to shoot a vertical picture on the P45 or A75 and shift the horizon all the way to the bottom of the frame.

The Alpa website is a good place to look at lenses:
[a href=\"http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products/lenses/digital_lenses]http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products.../digital_lenses[/url]

Alpa has pictures of the lenses, lists their image circles, and has links to MTF charts.

I have been hobbling this chart together to help me choose an appropriate range of lenses...

[attachment=1498:attachment]

[Boghb]

Silvestri is like a Cambo, but it has a front-end attachment that allows tilt and swing with any lens longer than 35mm.  That accessory also alleviates the need for a bayonet mount for the lenses, reducing cost.  So it is almost like a 6x9 but much more compact and precise.  I chose it over the arca 6x9, which felt too flimsy for 39mp DBs.

I did not even consider the Alpa because the lack of a sliding back effectively limits you to small appertures and superwide lenses.

Silvestri has sent me a technician to precisely calibrate focus for each lens.  Because of bad weather, though, he has been stuck in airports for the past two days; hopefully he will get here tomorrow.  This is what I call customer service!

[RobertJ]

Does anyone here use, or have experience with the Cambo Ultima 23 Digital view camera?

[GregShapps]

Does anyone here use, or have experience with the Cambo Ultima 23 Digital view camera?
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I have an Ultima 23 that I use a H25 on - what answers are you looking for?

[RobertJ]

Not only have I been looking for a medium format system to get into, but I've been looking at view cameras for digital backs.  Just wondering what you think of the Ultima.  It looks nice, but that's all I can say, since I've never handled it.  

There's so little information around, unlike the Canon and Nikon stuff.

[GregShapps]

T-1000 -

I have been perfectly happy with my Ultima 23, my only regret is that I purchased the Cambo sliding back instead of Phase's Flex Adapter.   There are plenty of people using them especially here in Chicago where Cambo has a long history since Calumet is based here.   There isn't much talk on forums about the Ultima but forums hardly are a 100% representation of the entire industry.

[RobertJ]

Thanks.

I downloaded the Ultima brochure, but if I want to actually handle one, I guess I would need to travel out of state (I'm in Virginia).  

How come you would've preferred the flex adapter to the Cambo sliding back?

[jklotz]

How come you would've preferred the flex adapter to the Cambo sliding back?
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I played with a 4 x 5 at my local dealer, and it had the flex adapter on it. The stiching was really cool. If you use capture one, you can slide the back until it clicks, fire an exposure, slide it to the 2nd position, fire another and hit the stich button in the software. Instantly you have a 2 image seemless stich, that easy. Takes all of 20 seconds. Sure beats the heck out of spending a few hours in photoshop trying to do it.