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Author Topic: Just say yes...  (Read 17750 times)

alainbriot

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Just say yes...
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2007, 01:12:11 pm »

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I'm actually currently reading Alain's book (highly recommended by the way), in the chapter on developing a style. Maybe by beginning to work out where my vision differs from Alain's, I'm actually beginning to realise that I might actually have some hope of developing a style of my own :-)
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Good point and thank you for the compliments on my new book.  Style develops through both hard work and personal choices, among other factors.  The choices we make are both about what we like and what we dislike.  Finding out what we dislike allows us to make a selection just as much as finding out what we like.  In fact, what we dislike is often a more powerful motivation to "do our own thing" than finding out what we like.  

Many artists, inventors, or other creative individuals got started doing their own thing because they did not like what others did, or did not think others were doing it the way it should be done.  There are many examples in the world of fine automobiles to take but one example. Enzo Ferrari and Ferrucio Lamborghini, in Italy, are good examples. Both offered a new approach to cars.  So did Ettore Bugatti.  

In fact, designers or engineers that choose to start their own company, often do so because they are unsatisfied with what exists around them. In many instances, they worked someone else in the same field, until they decided to go their own way.  This decision is usually motivated by the desire to go further, to do things differently or to do thing better.  Without a reaction towards what is already in existence at a given time, there would be no progress and no new styles would emerge.  

I know that, personally, my current style is as much a reflection of what I like as it is a reflection of what I don't like.  In many ways I want to provide to my audience an alternative to what was there before I got started as much as provide myself with the satisfaction of creating my own world, my own reality.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 03:21:57 pm by alainbriot »
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David Mantripp

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« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2007, 01:22:12 pm »

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Would a projected slide qualify?
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Depends what you project it on  
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howiesmith

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« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2007, 01:35:20 pm »

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Would a projected slide qualify?
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If you define manipulated to include projecting a slide. then, yes, it is manipulated.

I would answer your question with "it depends."  It depends on how you define manipulated.  I would not include projecting as manipulated.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 01:37:03 pm by howiesmith »
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mcanyes

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« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2007, 02:30:48 pm »

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If you define manipulated to include projecting a slide. then, yes, it is manipulated.

I would answer your question with "it depends."  It depends on how you define manipulated.  I would not include projecting as manipulated.
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MANIPULATION ALERT           MANIPULATION ALERT

Slide copier; slide sandwich; dupes; quality of projector; type and size of screen.

Go back to slide's golden years and read Modern Photography and Popular Photography. People were manipulatiing slides like crazy.
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Michael Canyes
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howiesmith

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« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2007, 02:46:35 pm »

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MANIPULATION ALERT           MANIPULATION ALERT

Slide copier; slide sandwich; dupes; quality of projector; type and size of screen.

Go back to slide's golden years and read Modern Photography and Popular Photography. People were manipulatiing slides like crazy.
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IF that is your definition of "manipulate."  Define slide copiing as "manipulation," and you are absolutely correct - a copied slide has been manipulated.  Same with a slide sandwich, a dupe, etc.

MANIPULATION ALERT           MANIPULATION ALERT

Before you can possibly determine whether something has been manipulated, you must define what "manipulate" means.

If you want to define manipule as "To tamper with for personal gain," then eating a steak is manipulating it.
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mcanyes

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« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2007, 03:12:49 pm »

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IF that is your definition of "manipulate."  Define slide copiing as "manipulation," and you are absolutely correct - a copied slide has been manipulated.  Same with a slide sandwich, a dupe, etc.
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This is getting a bit too circular. I don't have a personal definition of manipulate. I use what the dictionary says. Without dictionary definitions we are lost in chaos.

Let's just say that I create a personal interpretation of what I see before me. Pretty much the same way as my, then, 5-year-old daughter used my camera to make her personal interpretation of the back end of our cat. And then laughed her head off.

See you round the forum.
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Michael Canyes
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dturina

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« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2007, 04:41:07 pm »

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If you define manipulated to include projecting a slide. then, yes, it is manipulated.

I would answer your question with "it depends."  It depends on how you define manipulated.  I would not include projecting as manipulated.
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I agree. It depends on the temperature of the lamp, color and flatness of the screen and similar trivia, but basically, chromes on a lightbox or projected on a screen are as close to straight, unmanipulated photography as we can get, if we assume a straight E6 process. So, if we ignore the fact that photography itself is a form of manipulation, we can get unmanipulated photography, if anyone cares. I certainly don't - I will modify and manipulate whatever I like, because I don't see myself as someone who records documentary snapshots. I see myself as a painter who is too lazy to learn how to use brushes and paint and instead opted for film and lenses. I don't record physical reality, I record my thoughts and moods. I don't even care about physical reality - it's never the same anyway, there's nothing constant in it. People just delude themselves thinking otherwise.
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Danijel

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« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2007, 04:54:59 pm »

Check out the Adams # 8 and particularly the comments re: manipulation and "pure photography" - the other 12 are classics as well...

http://www.neatorama.com/2007/01/02/13-pho...nged-the-world/
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alainbriot

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« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2007, 05:12:04 pm »

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Check out the Adams # 8 and particularly the comments re: manipulation and "pure photography" - the other 12 are classics as well...

http://www.neatorama.com/2007/01/02/13-pho...nged-the-world/
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Ah, yes, "Pure Photography".  First: make the world black and white, then control tonality by optical and chemical means, then . . . ;-)

Maybe it is the definition of oxymoron we should look up, and not the definition of manipulated ?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 05:31:25 pm by alainbriot »
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Alain Briot
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howiesmith

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« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2007, 05:21:55 pm »

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Ah, yes, "Pure Photography".  First: make the world black and white . . . ;-)

Maybe it is the definition of oxymoron we should look up, and not the definition of manipulated ?
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OK.  I looked up oxymoron.

A paradox reduced to two words, usually in an adjective-noun ("eloquent silence") or adverb-adjective ("inertly strong") relationship, and is used for effect, to emphasize contrasts, incongruities, hypocrisy, or simply the complex nature of reality. Examples: wise fool, ignorantly learned, laughing sadness, pious hate.

I also looked uo parapox - a statement that contradicts itself.

"Pure photography" fits the adjective-noun and two word criteria.  But what about the paradox)?  If you assume "pure photography is self-contridictory, then you haven't you assumed the manipulation answer is yes?  Now that is circular.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 05:25:07 pm by howiesmith »
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Rob C

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« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2007, 05:22:36 am »

Howie - not only circular but it takes these discussions to the absurd, which in my opinion, I'm afraid that they are (but it perhaps takes an engineer's mind to know this!).

As Helmut Newton once said on that Canadian fashion channel, Fashion TV, whilst expressing amused amazement at the furore surrounding not only fashion but his photography too: 'for God's sake, it's only a photograph!'

Unless you work for CSI or some other such agency, whether you do or do not manipulate matters zilch, so to hell with anyone else's opinion on whether you do or you don't (remember those school days when they asked that about the school honey?); just go out and do whatever turns you on - that's about all you should expect from photography: personal gratification. If you are a pro you already know this; if you are a wannabe then get over it - you'll have a better time doing your own thing as, how and when the mood takes you. As I said, that's the best you can hope for from the experience.

Ciao - Rob C
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