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Author Topic: Good and bad web gallery designs  (Read 80602 times)

mikeseb

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Good and bad web gallery designs
« Reply #100 on: January 13, 2007, 03:31:11 pm »

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Wow, some have really negative opinions about Flash. 

Because often such sites seem to exist to serve Flash, not the images they purport to display.

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For example take this: www.robertcharlesphoto.com Maybe not the best flash-site, but they have something to say and I think they succeeded. For me it creates an intimate atmosphere or mood and it makes me confident that they can capture my family the way I like.

I see your point, Hendrik, but I still find robert charles photo to be one of the most annoying sites i've ever visited. It's practically a graduate-level tutorial in how to make a site maximally irritating.

I made myself stay long enough to ascertain that the photography is actually quite good. So why is it smothered in heinous music and laden with syrupy platitudes? And all the while something is spinning, or whirling, or moving, or loading, while the guitarist strums away in the background, like a three-fingered street musician who won't get out of your way.

Had I not deliberately wanted to view the work, I'd have run like a scalded dog from that site. The only atmosphere it creates for me is one of "what are they hiding?" and "aren't they confident enough in the work to present it without adornment?" and "do they think their target clients are so unsophisticated they'll not purchase their services without the nonsense?"

I don't know the owners of the above-referenced site, and I'm not trying to pick on them specifically.
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michael sebast

Chris_T

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« Reply #101 on: January 13, 2007, 03:38:44 pm »

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This will be an odd post, catching up with almost two weeks of not nearly enough time to participate in an interesting thread.

I'll just summarize my responses to a bunch of posts, one post per person I'm responding to (as an arbitrary division).

Better late than never. Great to have a programmer jumping in.

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Gallery examples
My first reaction was "ow, cluttered!"

This doesn't work very well, and the explanatory notes are only annoying.
Where are the photographs? All I see is a product site that tries to sell me services, or web links. Not a good site for showing off a photo gallery at all.

Perhaps the link died during the past ten days and I'm redirected to a main page or something, but it doesn't really say; bad usability.

I used those two pages to illustrate a layout with thumbnails and an enlargement on the same page. They are by no means what I consider good designs. Peter's site is a much better example of the page layout I have in mind.

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Design templates/scripts
I can't say that I do, but by juggling JavaScript/ECMAscript and xmlhttp ("AJAX"), it should be doable.

Maybe that's an excuse for finally learning Ruby.

You are the second person who suggests that it can be done with javascripts, etc. Almost everyone else can only do it with php. I would like to learn more about how to do it in javascripts, which I know next to nothing. What is Ruby? Is it possible to e-mail you directly?

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Books and web site design
That book has seen quite a few recommendations.

I'd like to add the following books to your reading list:

Designing Web Usability - the Practice of Simplicity (Jakob Nielsen, 2000)
Homepage Usability - 50 Web Sites Deconstructed (Jakob Nielsen, 2001)

I also suspect that his latest book, Prioritizing Web Usability (2006) is worth a read, but I haven't delved into it myself yet.

As with many others, I tend to prioritize by putting my time ahead of designing the perfect web pages, and allow some basic compromises that make me less than happy. 

Too many books and too little time. The two I recommended happen to be skinny and easy to digest.

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User interface consistency
I then must recommend that you read the following article:

The Case Against User Interface Consistency (Jonathan Grudin, 1989)



Brief summary: there is a balance; a little bit of inconsistency may be healthy.

I agee that there is room for inconsistency, provided that they are intended and serve some purposes. For the inconsistency in that particular site, I found it served no purpose and did not appear to be intended. The site's owner acknowledged that it was unintentional.

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Colour conversion
That may introduce rounding errors resulting in visible image quality loss, especially when the differences between the colour spaces are large.

While converting in 16-bit mode will still result in rounding errors, they will be less significant than if you do them in 8-bit mode.

Convert to sRGB first, then to 8-bit mode.

I stand corrected.

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CSS and floating elements
It may sound simple, but browser bugs may get in your way here. The chance of success is greater with Opera than any other browser, and lowest with Internet Explorer.

But, in principle, if you add an alignment parameter of center for the object you want centered, it should work. Just keep in mind that it will be centered in relation to the block around it, not the page.

I'll look into that center alignment parameter. Thanks.

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Gallery critique

In brief, I'm most happy with Lois's site.

My own? A mish-mash of different ages of web design and photography, and unfortunately not something I've put a lot of effort into. I like the fact that I've mainly managed to stick to simplicity, but I think I'm too chatty, and that the images I present aren't interesting enough. That's why there are few updates to these images, too. 

I'll check out your site, but be prepared for some opinionated feedback. Too many sites to review, and too little time. <g>

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But since I may want to improve my own web visibility as a photographer and start advertising myself, I'll have to get down and dirty and find my own expression. The web presentation becomes increasingly important, and I'll be damned if I don't nail it.

In some ways, it's a bit annoying that photographers may need to acquire yet another skill set in their profession, that of specialized web design. Then again, it can be compared to composing a decent "real life" gallery exhibition, which also is a job requiring skill and experience.

You got that right. After spending the amount of time/effort creating an image, it makes perfect sense to me to display it the best way I know how. And that means work, web or no web. Long before web came along, I learned how to mat and frame so that I can hang at home or give as gifts. Then I was so desperate to exhibit my work in public that I was thrilled even when they were hung on dirty walls in a dark and deserted pub. Now I'll scout the location for traffic, lighting and clean walls prior to commiting to an exhibit. Being a DIY type with a tech background, I fall into the trap of wanting to design my site. Oh, yeah, I still shoot, in my spare time.

Many great photogs who are not web saavy ended up with horrific sites for their wonderful work. They need to either become techies (not recommended) or search out the great web designers out there. My first level of screening is to ask a designer whether he/she is *proficient* at hand coding in html/css. It is a good test whether they are just Dreamweaver/template jockeys or do they really know what is under the hood. That quickly separates the men/women from the boys/girls.
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Chris_T

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« Reply #102 on: January 13, 2007, 03:55:44 pm »

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Thanks Chris.  The flyout menus are a great idea.  I will look into that.

The typical visitor to my site is looking for a particular event or group of events, e.g., Woodward basketball games, as opposed to simply poking around to see what's there.  Does looking at it from that standpoint change your opinion at all?

I guess that might be cast as a more general question too — i.e., to what extent should the design and navigation of a site take into account the expectations and intentions of the typical visitor, as opposed to meeting some more general overall ideal?

Nill
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[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Great questions, and Jani answered them well. I'll add my $.02.

The first questions a site builder should ask are: what is the site's purpose and who are the audience. All design decisions should then be based on these objectives.

In your case, I would have to retrack my recommendation. If you have a targeted audience who are already "trained" to navigate your site, changing it may rub them the wrong way. Instead, I will put some text/links in your homepage that will allow them to quickly get to the game gallery pages they are interested in. Actually, before even that, have a "What's New" section that lists the most recent games.

One of the things that really bugs me is few sites provide info about when the site was last updated, and what was updated. This is particularly important for sites like Luminous Landscape. None of the articles here are dated. With technology changing at the current speed, many writings can become obsolete in a hurry.
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jani

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« Reply #103 on: January 13, 2007, 04:01:00 pm »

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When I first entered the Isles of Shoals gallery, only the thumbnails are displayed without an enlargement. Perhaps displaying the first thumbnail as an enlargement will be better. After an enlargement is displayed there is no navigation for the next/previous one.
At this point, I went "huh?! have we even looked at the same site?".

And it appears that we have not.

I was evaluating the Ghana library, which is completely different.

Ironically, I don't like the Isles of Shoals gallery as much, because it feels a bit more cluttered and fiddly.

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BTW, my planned gallery layout is very close to yours. There will be no text at the top, the number of thumbnails is six, and the enlargement size is 300x450 pixels. It will fit nicely in a 1024x768 window (my target) without vertical scrolling. For each enlargement there will be captions, and next/previous navigation. For a gallery with more than six images, there will be navigation to load the additional thumnails. When advancing from one enlargement to another, only the new enlargement will be loaded, but not the thumbnails. (I think I need to use iframe for that, yuck.)
I believe you'll find that it's possible to replace the image in-place with AJAX.

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I wish your Ghana gallery is done the same way as the Shoals gallery. Then, I can see how you handle a large gallery with the same page layout. I have a plan but have yet to figure out how to code it.
flickr has examples of that, I guess.  

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The Ghana page's navigation menu at the top is very different from the other pages'. I suspect that this page is "borrowed" from another source, or done by a different designer. Have a good trip. Wish I'm coming along.
I think that navigation is the result of a standard HTML gallery product.
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jani

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« Reply #104 on: January 13, 2007, 04:15:14 pm »

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You are the second person who suggests that it can be done with javascripts, etc. Almost everyone else can only do it with php.
The important difference between javascript and PHP is:

PHP runs on the server, javascript in the browser.

So when PHP renders a page, it cannot actually change content that's already been sent to the web browser.

However, the web browser can change content that it's already received, and javascript contains mechanisms to manipulate that.

Here's an online AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) tutorial, and an example AJAX-based gallery (javascript source code).

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I would like to learn more about how to do it in javascripts, which I know next to nothing. What is Ruby? Is it possible to e-mail you directly?
I was actually thinking about using Ruby on Rails.

To send me email, just click on my nickname to get my profile, there's a link to sending email or PMs there.

A warning, though: I have no experience coding in javascript.

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I'll check out your site, but be prepared for some opinionated feedback. Too many sites to review, and too little time. <g>
Hehe

I wouldn't have volunteered the link if I couldn't take opinionated feedback, even though I know the presentation isn't very good...
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Nill Toulme

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« Reply #105 on: January 13, 2007, 04:18:25 pm »

Thanks again Chris.  A "What's New" item for the front page is a particularly good idea, and also perhaps a particularly good place to experiment with the flyout idea.

Nill
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Chris_T

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« Reply #106 on: January 13, 2007, 04:22:30 pm »

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Ok, so stay away from flash is the majority opinion.  How about what gamma to use for your images. 

I do all of my work on a Mac G5 out to the Epson 4800 and stay in a gamma of 2.2.  I've built my web site on that gamma but wonder what is the typical gamma on most folks monitors that they will be viewing my site on.

http://www.shadowsdancing.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95359\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think the navigation menu will be more visible at the top instead of the bottom of a page.

What percentage of your targeted audience will understand the meaning of  "gamma 2.2"?

I dislike "Under Construction" or "Future Image". In a gallery exhibit, will you leave an empty space on the wall with a "Work in Progress" note?

On a thumbnails page, "click in any image to enlarge" is not necessary, and the text is sitting right on top of the thumbnails without any spacing.

The color of a thumbnail's background and an enlargement's borders is the same as the overall background. I think a lighter (off-white?) color may work better. The enlargement borders are way too narrow for my taste.

Once an enlargement is displayed, there is no way to view a previous one.

The few thumbnails pages I checked don't have too many images and the layout is adequate. How will you handle a gallery with, say, 30 images?
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Hendrik

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« Reply #107 on: January 13, 2007, 04:56:31 pm »

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Flash in itself may not be intrinsically bad, except for the lack of possible indexing and the requirement of a browser plugin.
"Voor deze site heeft u Microsoft Internet Explorer versie 5.5 (of hoger) en de Macromedia Flash plugin versie 7 (of hoger) nodig."

You might say that opinions may differ, yes.

For one thing, you don't need Microsoft Internet Explorer to view flash pages.

And if you're designing your web pages for Internet Explorer only, I can see why you need to redesign; IE 7 is not design compatible with IE 6 and previous versions.

...

Hmm, didn't know it wasn't viewable on Firefox. I shall mail the one who made this for me and ask him about this issues. (I designed it, but cannot make it in flash).
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jani

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« Reply #108 on: January 13, 2007, 05:55:55 pm »

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Hmm, didn't know it wasn't viewable on Firefox. I shall mail the one who made this for me and ask him about this issues. (I designed it, but cannot make it in flash).
All he needs to do is to remove the browser check, that's so ... 1995.
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Chris_T

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« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2007, 10:24:26 am »

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Because often such sites seem to exist to serve Flash, not the images they purport to display.
I see your point, Hendrik, but I still find robert charles photo to be one of the most annoying sites i've ever visited. It's practically a graduate-level tutorial in how to make a site maximally irritating.

I made myself stay long enough to ascertain that the photography is actually quite good. So why is it smothered in heinous music and laden with syrupy platitudes? And all the while something is spinning, or whirling, or moving, or loading, while the guitarist strums away in the background, like a three-fingered street musician who won't get out of your way.

Had I not deliberately wanted to view the work, I'd have run like a scalded dog from that site. The only atmosphere it creates for me is one of "what are they hiding?" and "aren't they confident enough in the work to present it without adornment?" and "do they think their target clients are so unsophisticated they'll not purchase their services without the nonsense?"

I don't know the owners of the above-referenced site, and I'm not trying to pick on them specifically.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wow, and I worried that my comments may be too blunt and opinionated. LOL.

Thanks for the warning, I won't bother going there.

Can you share with us your favorite photo gallery sites?
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Chris_T

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« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2007, 10:28:20 am »

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The important difference between javascript and PHP is:

PHP runs on the server, javascript in the browser.

So when PHP renders a page, it cannot actually change content that's already been sent to the web browser.

However, the web browser can change content that it's already received, and javascript contains mechanisms to manipulate that.

Here's an online AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) tutorial, and an example AJAX-based gallery (javascript source code).
I was actually thinking about using Ruby on Rails.

To send me email, just click on my nickname to get my profile, there's a link to sending email or PMs there.

A warning, though: I have no experience coding in javascript.
Hehe

I wouldn't have volunteered the link if I couldn't take opinionated feedback, even though I know the presentation isn't very good...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

First Ruby, now Ajax. My head is spinning and now I wonder what I'm getting myself into.

I'm quite surprised by your photo pages:

[a href=\"http://folk.uio.no/jani/hobbies/photo/]http://folk.uio.no/jani/hobbies/photo/[/url]

I was expecting fine work from someone with great technical competence. But these pages are so basic that they look like something coded by me. Perhaps you designed your site this way to serve a particular purpose or for a targeted audience? I have no doubt that you can come up with something quite different.
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Chris_T

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« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2007, 10:41:35 am »

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At this point, I went "huh?! have we even looked at the same site?".

And it appears that we have not.

I reached the following Shoals gallery page

http://petererandall.com/shoals.html

by clicking the Gallery menu button on the home page followed by clicking the Shoals gallery link. The above page opens with the thumbnails, but *without* an enlargement.

Which page are you looking at?

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I was evaluating the Ghana library, which is completely different.

My comment as well. Perhaps that's another work in progress.

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Ironically, I don't like the Isles of Shoals gallery as much, because it feels a bit more cluttered and fiddly. 

Not quite sure what you meant by cluttered and fiddly. As stated earlier, designing a layout with a bunch of thumbnails and an enlargement on the same gallery page is my holy grail. The Shoals page is a good example, but I would remove the text paragraphs, and reduce the number of thumbnails to six, and incorporate better navigation. Perhaps that will be less cluttered.

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I believe you'll find that it's possible to replace the image in-place with AJAX.
flickr has examples of that, I guess.   
I think that navigation is the result of a standard HTML gallery product.
Yet another alternative to look into. Thanks.
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Chris_T

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« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2007, 11:14:46 am »

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Very interesting thread. A couple of peripheral notes:

I just googled "dial-up percentage" and there's a report that says dial-up decreased to 44 percent in 2006 -- 56 percent of web users are now on high-speed broadband. That's an eleven percent increase in 2006 alone. In a couple of years, I would say that dial-up won't be worth designing for, especially for photogaphy websites (I would be willling to bet that people who are interested in photography on the web are much more likely that the average user to be on a high-speed connection.)

What images we want to share, with whom and by what means are entirely our personal decisions. We can all achieve such goals with a little thinking before designing a site and executing accordingly.

Unlike many other services (like clean tap water and indoor plumbing), the Net (and cell phones), is much more easily available to those less fortunate than us. Building easily accessible sites is one way to make good use of the Net to reach the broadest audience out there.

Sorry to let my bleeding heart slip, and stepping off my soap box.
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Chris_Brown

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« Reply #113 on: January 14, 2007, 02:07:57 pm »

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Building easily accessible sites is one way to make good use of the Net to reach the broadest audience out there.
ChrisT,

This is where I think you're being too conservative and leaning towards the dial-up crowd too much. If Amazon.com were to design for dial-up, they wouldn't display their vast database as they do, nor have the success they do now. As a photographer (I only assume you're one because you've not shown us your site or work) your market/niche is much more limited than Amazon's. In my judgement, you could design for faster download times for your audience because they expect a higher level of image quality and are willing to wait a few more microseconds for better quality reproduction.

A simple, well-coded PHP site with a MySQL backend would load just as fast as a simple-but-customized HTML site. Even if the visitor was on dial-up.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 04:34:27 pm by Chris_Brown »
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jani

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« Reply #114 on: January 14, 2007, 02:49:18 pm »

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First Ruby, now Ajax. My head is spinning and now I wonder what I'm getting myself into.
The two are not mutually exclusive, any more than "web server" and "web browser" are.

Ruby runs on the web server, AJAX runs in the web browser.

Ruby can be used to generate AJAX pages, for instance with Ruby on Rails.

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I'm quite surprised by your photo pages:

http://folk.uio.no/jani/hobbies/photo/

I was expecting fine work from someone with great technical competence. But these pages are so basic that they look like something coded by me. Perhaps you designed your site this way to serve a particular purpose or for a targeted audience?
I think the hint is in the URL; it's a hobby page. If you strip down to http://folk.uio.no/jani/, you'll see that it's a bit of work even to get there.

The design was made simple to save time, and to easily share a few pictures with fellow ex-students, and because PHP and CGI aren't reliable alternatives.

You'll probably note that the photographic quality isn't much to boast about, either.

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I have no doubt that you can come up with something quite different.
I definitely can, but I have the same problem as many others; time and inclination do not match the ability.

I also find it very hard to motivate myself; I spend all day with computers, spending evenings with them, too, is not high on my list of priorities, and that unfortunately also results in less work with afterprocessing of images, too.

Criticizing others is easy and effortless, though.
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brianchapman

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« Reply #115 on: January 14, 2007, 03:48:25 pm »

This thread is hard to keep up with!!
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What happens if you fail to detect the browser width, for instance if the user has disabled javascript?
If I fail to detect browser width I simply use the default style (I honestly can't remember at the moment whether it is the large or small on though!)  I don't worry about those people who disable javascript - it's becoming important enough for a rich user experience that I assume that the majority of people who expect such an experience will not disable it.  That assumption is supported by the percentage of people visiting my site with javascript disabled - 1%.  That said, my site does degrade gracefully for that 1%...but it wasn't an intentional feature.

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com
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AWeil

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« Reply #116 on: January 14, 2007, 07:34:21 pm »

Indeed, hard to follow this hread - but fun.
I second Jani: Easy to criticize, hard to do/find the time/the motivation.

Mine is a php site, no flash, just images:
http://www.awl-photo.com
The site is meant to share images, a 'This is what I do' type of page.
 
A similar one, but constructed much better, is this one:
http://www.nick-hermanns-photography.de/
I like the text overlays, but I don't know how to implement that.

And this site I like a lot, very simple and straight forward - even better than the other two sites:
http://www.kalpeshlathigra.com/main.php

Cheers
Angela
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 07:35:39 pm by AWeil »
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Chris_Brown

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« Reply #117 on: January 14, 2007, 10:15:54 pm »

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http://www.nick-hermanns-photography.de/

http://www.kalpeshlathigra.com/main.php
I really like these two galleries also. For my connection (standard DSL) they are very fast loading.
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Gregory

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« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2007, 05:37:31 am »

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Any font/rollover color differences in the main site are not intended...I will take a look.  I think consistency is important but I have a lot of extras in my css which has caused some problems finding things ;-)[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As your site grows, the css will become more complex; assuming that you write your own code. I use [a href=\"http://macrabbit.com/cssedit/]CSSEdit[/url] to write my CSS code and Xyle Scope to examine the site and see which css code is governing the appearance of what content. It makes things much much easier to manage.

regards,
Gregory
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Gregory

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« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2007, 05:44:25 am »

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The Beauty gallery took a long time to load and I think I know why. The image is 162kb at 300dpi. For web display, you don't need more than 100dpi.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=93866\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Most web browsers ignore the dpi setting and display at native resolution. As such, the resolution should not affect the size of the image. The pixel dimensions and jpeg compression quality setting would affect the size. If you're using a Mac, a custom icon will also increase the size of the file. I remove my custom icons via a script and GraphicConverter before ftp'ing up to my server.

regards,
Gregory
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