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Author Topic: LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?  (Read 6029 times)

Christopher

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« on: December 29, 2006, 08:08:16 am »

Hello,

Ok I'll start right away. I need a new big printer. Mostly for Fine Art Printing. Right now I'm using a Epson R2400 for small prints and a friend gives me nice prices for bigger prints on his Epson 9800. That was no prolem so far, but over the time this is getting to expensive. I need to print bigger often then I thought.

SO now it is time for me to buy a big printer.

Now what should I really choose ? I mean I don't really think about an Epson 9800. I like my 2400, but I'm printing a lot Matt and Glossy, so I would need to stiwch a lot of ink.

So what else is there ? I mean Canon will bring their 8000 which will be an 44" printer ?
There also is the HP Z3100 44" which got some pretty good reviews.

Now I don't need that printer right away, but I was thinking to buy it around Februaray.

I know this question is kind of dump ^^, but I had to ask. Does anybody know if Epson is planing to realease a new printer series soon ? I mean in the next 3 months or so ? I just have alway the thought that Epsons x800 series is also soom days old, and that through the higher pressure they are getting, a new series without stwiching ink could come...

Thanks for your help

Christopher

P.S. I'm really looking forward to see michaels review of the HP Z3100.
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Christopher Hauser
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PrintLabGuy

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2006, 03:09:17 pm »

How much are you interested in spending? I think HP has some of the better value stuff out there. I've used their 800ps and 500ps, 42" and 36" plotters to print my students' line-art, illustrations, and renderings on Oce Heavy Matte and Satin papers with decent quality. This was our most affordable option.

I've since moved to using Epson large-format printers and extremely surprised by the jump in quality. I'm now able to do photographic quality prints, but it costs the students almost double. I'm currently trying to find a printer that fits in nicely between my color copiers and photo plotters to better suit my students' budgets.
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Christopher

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2006, 03:31:05 pm »

Now I don't really care too much about the price. The most important thing is absolut quality. I can only tell what I heared but it sounded like the new Z3100 from Hp outperforms the Epsons so far....
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Christopher Hauser
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Tim Ernst

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2006, 08:19:29 am »

I just took delivery of a 24" z3100 on Friday. They are shipping the 44" model too (in the USA). I also have the Canon ipf5000 and Epson 4800 (although I just sold it). I'm going to be selling the Canon too. Looks like the new HPs are the top of the heap at the moment, especially if you want to print glossy. I'm sure Epson will rebound with a new line later in 2007, and then Canon, and then HP again, although I'm not sure how much better then can get than the z series. I won't be doing any extensive testing as there is really no way I would send this printer back, but I assume I'll be a happy camper until the next round of technology improments come along.

One item of note about the HP z's. I have my own EyeOne to make custom profiles with. However I find that over the years I have really only used it for the papers that I use the most, which is normally only one or two main papers that I print on. When I want to try another paper I will get a box but seldom ever actually go through with producing a custom profile for just those few sheets. With the new z printers it will be so much easier to play with (I mean test) new papers with a custom profile that I think I will now finally get around to expermenting with some other paper stocks. Bottom line is that I think this new printer will help me enjoy my photography and printing a little bit more and will allow me to fine tune my tastes in paper with minimual effort. Price and ink costs has never been that much of an issue with me either - after all this is so much cheaper than the best quality lab prints ever could be, and I'm saving so much cash every day vs. shooting film anyway that is really is a non issue. However I'm sure we will all continue to penny-pinch until the ink is free...
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Brian Gilkes

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2006, 05:26:16 pm »

I look forward to report on the Z printers in practice.
Undoubtably the inclusion of the spectrophotometer is very interestig for those of us that use a wide variety of papers and are continually using new ones.
One concern that I do have is the relatively small number of pathches generated in the Z printers. It has been my experience that around 1000 patches are needed to build a good profile.
High ink linearity would reduce patches necessary , but Epson K3 inkset  performs well in this respect and still requires the said number of patches.
 This is also partly due to the different ways in which different paper coatings receive the ink, a factor that is independant to ink linearity.
In the worst case scenario however HPs approach would enable us to evaluate papers and produce useable results. Promising candidates could then be subjected to a more rigorous evaluation and custom profiling in the traditional manner.
Another benefit would be to evaluate any differences in ink or paper batches and drift due to nozzle wear . These factors are often ignored once a custom profile for an ink/paper/printer combination is in use.
All this is a big move in the right direction. It will be interesting to see what Epsons response is, especially as HP will have most probably tied things up with XRite- Gretag. They could go to Fuji but I doubt this would be a popular move.
To maintain market dominance, they will need to pull some sort of rabbit out of the hat.
This will include auto black ink change.
It will have to address nozzle blocking.
A much faster printer, maintaining quality, could do it.
Slashing ink prices by 50% or more would go over well, but would only be tempoary as HP (and Canon) would undoubtably match.
I suspect Micheal's forthcoming report will cause more concern at Epson.
Cheers,
Brian,
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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william

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2006, 08:23:27 pm »

Tim,

Could you elaborate a bit more specifically as to why you think the HP is "top of the heap" versus the Epson 4800 and the Canon 5000?  Do you mean in terms of printed image quality, useability, economy, nifty features (the built-in profiler), all of the above, etc?  I have an Epson 9800 and 4800 currently, but I'm seriously considering the HP z3100, either 24 or 44 inch.

Quote
I just took delivery of a 24" z3100 on Friday. They are shipping the 44" model too (in the USA). I also have the Canon ipf5000 and Epson 4800 (although I just sold it). I'm going to be selling the Canon too. Looks like the new HPs are the top of the heap at the moment, especially if you want to print glossy. I'm sure Epson will rebound with a new line later in 2007, and then Canon, and then HP again, although I'm not sure how much better then can get than the z series. I won't be doing any extensive testing as there is really no way I would send this printer back, but I assume I'll be a happy camper until the next round of technology improments come along.

One item of note about the HP z's. I have my own EyeOne to make custom profiles with. However I find that over the years I have really only used it for the papers that I use the most, which is normally only one or two main papers that I print on. When I want to try another paper I will get a box but seldom ever actually go through with producing a custom profile for just those few sheets. With the new z printers it will be so much easier to play with (I mean test) new papers with a custom profile that I think I will now finally get around to expermenting with some other paper stocks. Bottom line is that I think this new printer will help me enjoy my photography and printing a little bit more and will allow me to fine tune my tastes in paper with minimual effort. Price and ink costs has never been that much of an issue with me either - after all this is so much cheaper than the best quality lab prints ever could be, and I'm saving so much cash every day vs. shooting film anyway that is really is a non issue. However I'm sure we will all continue to penny-pinch until the ink is free...
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feppe

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2006, 08:51:08 pm »

If you're concerned about cost of inks, the recent out-of-court settlement by Epson with 3rd party ink manufacturers spells trouble - read: increases - for the prices of Epson inks.

Tim Ernst

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2006, 08:54:19 pm »

William:

How much does it cost you to switch from mat black to photo black ink in the 9800? HP, zero.

The Canon and Epson produce gloss differential. HP, zero (when you use the gloss ink of course).

Epson fade test - 74 years, Canon - 100. HP - 200+. (I know none of us are going to be alive in 200 years but I still want my prints to be.)

And now that I have profiled a couple different papers already on the z, yup, it is kind of fun and SO much better than doing it by hand.

I find the prints from all three in the real world (framed, up on the wall, normal people looking at them without magnifying glasses) pretty much the same - better than any wet darkroom print, a lot cheaper, and they will last a great deal longer. I am no expert or computer wiz that looks at and compares all the gamut mapping charts - I really could care less about all that stuff. I just want prints that look great and will last and will be the very best premium product I can put into my customers hands. This week, that seems to me to be the new HPs.

If you only use mat papers and don't care as much about your prints being around in 200 years then the 9800 is a great printer. The Canon is far better then the 4800 (if you use both mat and luster/gloss papers). But the HP z's just seem to have it all, at least all that is available right now. Still not perfect (I HATE the sheet feeder, but it is probably better than the Epson way on the 9800), but a few more steps in the right direction for my needs. Obviously Michael is going to have a ton of great info about the z's, pro and con, here soon...
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william

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2006, 09:32:45 pm »

Thanks, Tim.  Re: sheet feeding, I take it that it doesn't just load straight down from the top like the 9800?

Quote
William:

How much does it cost you to switch from mat black to photo black ink in the 9800? HP, zero.

The Canon and Epson produce gloss differential. HP, zero (when you use the gloss ink of course).

Epson fade test - 74 years, Canon - 100. HP - 200+. (I know none of us are going to be alive in 200 years but I still want my prints to be.)

And now that I have profiled a couple different papers already on the z, yup, it is kind of fun and SO much better than doing it by hand.

I find the prints from all three in the real world (framed, up on the wall, normal people looking at them without magnifying glasses) pretty much the same - better than any wet darkroom print, a lot cheaper, and they will last a great deal longer. I am no expert or computer wiz that looks at and compares all the gamut mapping charts - I really could care less about all that stuff. I just want prints that look great and will last and will be the very best premium product I can put into my customers hands. This week, that seems to me to be the new HPs.

If you only use mat papers and don't care as much about your prints being around in 200 years then the 9800 is a great printer. The Canon is far better then the 4800 (if you use both mat and luster/gloss papers). But the HP z's just seem to have it all, at least all that is available right now. Still not perfect (I HATE the sheet feeder, but it is probably better than the Epson way on the 9800), but a few more steps in the right direction for my needs. Obviously Michael is going to have a ton of great info about the z's, pro and con, here soon...
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Tim Ernst

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2006, 09:44:38 pm »

It actually has a sheet feeder all across the back - 24" wide but only 8" or so tall (plus a short extension), but the problem is that you must get the paper loaded EXACTLY or the printer will reject it, and force you to realign, a process than can take several minutes. It is a pain in the butt, and I know this is not a sheet-feed printer but I was hoping it would do a better job than this since it has the actual sheet feeder in the back. I think overall these printers are way too critical when it comes to alignment, although I guess I would scream louder if it allowed my paper to be inserted crooked and I got bad borders! I don't understand why they don't make a 24" printer that has a cassette tray like the HP 130 does...
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william

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2006, 01:15:12 pm »

Thank you.  My old 9600 and 4000 were also very touchy about correct sheet loading, but I don't have any problems at all with the 9800 and 4800.  For my own work, I tend to use sheets up to 17x22 and only use rolls for larger sizes, so the ability to easily load sheets is important...

Quote
It actually has a sheet feeder all across the back - 24" wide but only 8" or so tall (plus a short extension), but the problem is that you must get the paper loaded EXACTLY or the printer will reject it, and force you to realign, a process than can take several minutes. It is a pain in the butt, and I know this is not a sheet-feed printer but I was hoping it would do a better job than this since it has the actual sheet feeder in the back. I think overall these printers are way too critical when it comes to alignment, although I guess I would scream louder if it allowed my paper to be inserted crooked and I got bad borders! I don't understand why they don't make a 24" printer that has a cassette tray like the HP 130 does...
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Brian Gilkes

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2006, 04:14:18 pm »

All sounds good, bar the sheet feed problem. I have had no problem with the 9800 either but a fussy feeder would be a deal breaker. Deckle edge papers would be a nightmare.
 There has to be a way around this. Anyone out there with any ideas?
Large sheets are a breeze with the 9800 as you just load them as if you had a roll, ie slide the sheet down until it aligns with the same marks used for a roll. Can this be done on the HP Zs? Currently I'm printing on a lot of Dutch etching paper, 44"x30"
While I'm here I would be interests in gamut  andl linearity plots. There is a lot of stuff being done now that  pushes gamut to, and often outside, the limits. Linearity is especially important with B&W.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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Tim Ernst

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2007, 01:41:17 pm »

Just FYI to anyone ordering this new printer - HP does NOT have replacement ink carts in stock yet for about half of the ink carts, and they don't know when they are going to get them (although the ink carts that come with the printer still have quite a bit of ink left after the lines are filled)...
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Roscolo

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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2007, 01:55:56 pm »

What did you pay for you z3100?

Does anyone know if they offer it without the spectrophotometer? I think the spectro inclusion is what makes the price of the printer just a little out of my range, and it's just something else that can fail, i.e. unnecessary add-on.

Very interested in this printer and in the forthcoming review, but $4000-$4500 is a bit much considering what the competition costs - ipf5000 = $1300-$1500
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Tim Ernst

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LF 44" Fine Art Printer ?
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2007, 02:58:41 pm »

Roscolo:

The Canon is actually not in the same class - it is only a 17" printer while the z is 24" (or 44"). I have them both that this is a mile of difference.

I paid $3950 plus $175 shipping for my 24" z3100. The z series is not available without the EyeOne. I have railed against HP for this very thing but really, once you get used to the built-in spectro you are instantly spoiled and will not want to do it manually again! However, if you are against paying four grand for a printer then you simply need to look elsewhere - the new Canon ipf6000 is supposed to be a 24" printer and will probably ship sometime later this quarter (?).

By the way I paid $1395 for my 17" Canon ipf5000 with shipping, roll adapter, and extra maintenance tank.
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