Assign, Convert & Embed

[cherylusa]

Hi! This is my 1st post; thanks for your help. What are the differences between Assign, Convert and Embed and how do they affect the digital image information when used as well as the final printed product(s)?

Thanks!

[jackbingham]

Embed and assign are essentially the same thing althought the terms are used in different places. For instance embed would most often be used in a raw converter like Capture One or Raw Developer if you wanted to attach a source profile to an image when you process it, but not convert it to a destination profile. Assign appears as an option in Photoshop when you open an image with no profile or a profile that does not match your default working space as set in color settings. In this case you could assign a profile to an image that has none, as it's source, or change what is assigned, which would most often be ill advised.
Convert means exactly that. Chnage an image from a source profile to a destination profile altering the data.

[jjlphoto]

Another way to look at it-

Assign- Input
Convert-Output
Embed- Saves

Assigning different profiles will make the image change its appearance on screen. Assigning the correct profile will make it render properly.

Converting will cause little change in how it appears onn screen.

Embeding saves your chosen profile to the file when you do a save/save as.

[David White]

I've found that it is easier thinking about it this way:  Assign will not change the RGB numbers but the colors will reflect the colors in the assigned color space.  Convert will change the RGB numbers to match the colors in the new color space and the colors will stay close to the same (depending upon the characteristics of the new space).

[Schewe]

Embed and assign are essentially the same thing
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91444\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Uh, no...

Assign: assign a profile to a set of numbers that constitute an image that has no profile associated-meaning the RGB or CMYK numbers are undefined.

Convert: convert a set of known numbers (profile) to another set of known numbers (profile).

Embed: save a profile in an image to define the numbers.

Assign doesn't change the numbers, only changes what the numbers mean. Convert changes the numbers. Embed makes sure you don't get confused in the future...

:~)

[David White]

Assign: assign a profile to a set of numbers that constitute an image that has no profile associated-meaning the RGB or CMYK numbers are undefined.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just a little nit.  You can assign a profile to an image that already has a profile.  This is what is done with Joe Holmes' color spaces.

[cherylusa]

Just a little nit.  You can assign a profile to an image that already has a profile.  This is what is done with Joe Holmes' color spaces.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

(OOPS! Sorry 'bout the next post) When you do this, what kind of effect(s) do you get (I know this depends on the original profile & one saved with new profile) or are you looking to achieve? Is this something you do/use often?

[David White]

(OOPS! Sorry 'bout the next post) When you do this, what kind of effect(s) do you get (I know this depends on the original profile & one saved with new profile) or are you looking to achieve? Is this something you do/use often?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

With the Joe Holmes profiles, the purpose of assigning them is to add more chroma to the image by fixed amounts.  I use them with landscapes to add a little edge to the colors and to slightly increase saturation without blowing out the image or creating an artificial look.  Take a look at [a href=\"http://www.josephholmes.com/profiles.html]Joe's working spaces[/url] for an explanation of what is happening.  Some of it may be a little color geeky depending on your level of expertise but it should help a little.

[jackbingham]

Uh, yes

Assign: assign a profile to a set of numbers that constitute an image that has no profile associated-

Embed: save a profile in an image to define the numbers.


Unless I'm mistaken the above makes the same point..."Embed and assign are essentially the same thing althought the terms are used in different places"

as in Embed...save a profile to a set of numbers that constitute an image that has no profile associated with it.

[digitaldog]

Embed, tag, Assign are all terms used that describe associating an ICC profile to an image. Without the profile, the numbers have no associated scale**. The profile tells ICC aware applications where the numbers lie within human vision. Without, Photoshop and other ICC aware applications don't know the scale of the numbers so they guess at how to preview those numbers. This is why when you assign a profile, the preview changes but the numbers do not.

There's a tutorial on Convert versus Assign on my web site should working thorough the various processes make more sense.

** case in point. I'm seeing the wind and snow blowing outside my window and my weather center tells me the wind is blowing at 10. 10 what? Knots? MPH? Without the scale, the number isn't very useful.

[Schewe]

Unless I'm mistaken the above makes the same point..."Embed and assign are essentially the same thing althought the terms are used in different places"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nope. . .just cause you assign doesn't mean that the profile will be embedded when saved in the image...in point of fact if there IS NO profile in an image, assigning different profiles may help you guess what profile is SUPPOSED to be in the image or in the case of the Holms profile example, you assign the profile you wish the numbers to represent.

Assign assigns a profile to an image...embedding is the act of saving a profile in an image.

[jackbingham]

Nope. . .just cause you assign doesn't mean that the profile will be embedded when saved in the image...in point of fact if there IS NO profile in an image, assigning different profiles may help you guess what profile is SUPPOSED to be in the image or in the case of the Holms profile example, you assign the profile you wish the numbers to represent.

Assign assigns a profile to an image...embedding is the act of saving a profile in an image.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I believe the following accurately depicts the point I was making, and I think the source should perhaps get you off my back, cause it's the holiday season.  "Embed, tag, Assign are all terms used that describe associating an ICC profile to an image." A.Rodney.

[digitaldog]

I'm pretty sure we could find an application other than Photoshop that uses the term 'Assign Profile' but it's primarily known in Photoshop. If you save the file, that assigned profile will be embedded when again, using Photoshop (you can over-ride this in the Save dialog). So until the file is saved, the profile isn't technically embedded (it is associated which is what I primarily said). Tag falls into the same gray area. You could tag an image with a profile but until it's saved to disk, the profile isn't embedded.

[cherylusa]

I'm pretty sure we could find an application other than Photoshop that uses the term 'Assign Profile' but it's primarily known in Photoshop. If you save the file, that assigned profile will be embedded when again, using Photoshop (you can over-ride this in the Save dialog). So until the file is saved, the profile isn't technically embedded (it is associated which is what I primarily said). Tag falls into the same gray area. You could tag an image with a profile but until it's saved to disk, the profile isn't embedded.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91760\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's my understanding that Fuji Frontier & Noritsu printers "ignore" embedded info, so how do I "save" an image file with the edited info so that the PhotoShop edits I make using a printer's icc profile gets used in the printing process? I'm also having a hard time finding an icc profile for the Noritsu QSS 2611 - any tips? Also - when I chose where to have my prints done, should I ask how often they calibrate their printers? THANKS SO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR HELP EVERYONE! Especially during this busy holiday season. God bless! Cheryl

[digitaldog]

It's my understanding that Fuji Frontier & Noritsu printers "ignore" embedded info, so how do I "save" an image file with the edited info so that the PhotoShop edits I make using a printer's icc profile gets used in the printing process? I'm also having a hard time finding an icc profile for the Noritsu QSS 2611 - any tips? Also - when I chose where to have my prints done, should I ask how often they calibrate their printers? THANKS SO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR HELP EVERYONE! Especially during this busy holiday season. God bless! Cheryl
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just because a profile is embedded, doesn't mean an application or driver can see or use it. There's nothing you can do about something like the Fuji (which CAN recognize profiles depending on the front end running the machine). If a driver doesn't look for the profiles, nothing you can do. There are also plenty of formats that don't support ICC profiles (Tiff, PSD, PDF, JPEG and all the big ones you should be using do).

I've built many profiles for Noritsu's so it's possible but ultimately your lab has to supply one to you.

[cherylusa]

Just because a profile is embedded, doesn't mean an application or driver can see or use it. There's nothing you can do about something like the Fuji (which CAN recognize profiles depending on the front end running the machine). If a driver doesn't look for the profiles, nothing you can do. There are also plenty of formats that don't support ICC profiles (Tiff, PSD, PDF, JPEG and all the big ones you should be using do).

I've built many profiles for Noritsu's so it's possible but ultimately your lab has to supply one to you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91767\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wonder...did any of us have any idea what we were getting into when we decided to seriously pursue photography?! I'm spending so much more time learning about editing and printing processes than taking pictures! Seems like a necessary evil in order for our prints to turn out right, though. I'm sure it will be worth all the work, I'll soon see. What do you suggest for monitor calibration for viewing images (edited & unedited)? Should I have different display profiles to (try and) match the lab(s) I chose for printing? I feel like I'm finding Rubic's cubes within Rubic's cubes with all the variables. Thanks!

[digitaldog]

What do you suggest for monitor calibration for viewing images (edited & unedited)? Should I have different display profiles to (try and) match the lab(s) I chose for printing? I feel like I'm finding Rubic's cubes within Rubic's cubes with all the variables. Thanks!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91776\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

With the exception of the old Artisan which promoted and made easy the switching of calibration and profile, I'd stick with one. You do have to calibrate and profile the display or the numbers you see are science fiction. Is the image too dark or is it the display?

To match various output devices, you need an output profile. Otherwise Photoshop has no idea where the numbers are going and what the right mix of numbers should be. You can soft proof once you have this output profile along with the use of the display profile above. Two profiles are always necessary to produce a preview or color space conversion. In the case of a soft proof, you need the printer profile and display profile, then set this up using Photoshop's Custom Proof Setup. The current working space preview isn't based on any output per say and until you inform Photoshop about the particulars it can't provide a correct preview. Getting the display calibrated and profiled is relatively easy compared to getting good ICC output profiles from your service providers.

[cherylusa]

How important is it for a printer to be calibrated? Do/Can printers run different icc profiles?

[digitaldog]

How important is it for a printer to be calibrated? Do/Can printers run different icc profiles?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91779\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Calibration is used for devices that are not stable and alter their behavior and for putting such a device in a defined and preferred behavior. For example, your display isn't a stable device. You need to calibrate it so it's always behaving the same way, otherwise, the same set of numbers will produce different previews over time; clearly not what you want.

You can calibrate this display to many settings. Ideally you want the best possible device behavior so you use target calibration aim points you define for this process. You might find a Natve Gamma is a better behavior than something arbitrary like 2.2. But as soon as such a decision is made, you want to ensure that the display is ALWAYS producing this behavior otherwise, time to recalibrate.

Your lab should produce consistent output day in and day out. HOW they do this isn't your concern. But if you send the same set of numbers to the device today and in a year, you should see the same color output. For this to happen, the output device either has to be very stable (an example is an Epson printer using Epson inks/papers) OR someone has to calibrate the device on a regular basis.

[cherylusa]

Thanks so much for the info & helping me to understand the necessity of keeping my monitor calibrated! Some time ago I was in an accident that caused brain injuries that rendered me unemployable. A pal of mine who was a (film) freelancer saw my work and encouraged me to take it further. It's great therapy, incredibly rewarding, keeps exercising my brain (and patience at times) and will hopefully be a source of income one day. I don't wan't to seem sappy, but since it's the holidays I'll allow myself: Thanks SO much for all your time and expertise. BTW: Where can I see your photos? Cheryl