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Author Topic: This is why no RAW on the G7  (Read 87107 times)

howiesmith

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2006, 04:17:56 pm »

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There could be lots of other reasons why; only Canon knows. I have been on many projects where the technical reasons for doing or not doing something were among the least important considerations.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89267\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Very true.  Management may have more information than the engineers and non-technical reasons for doing or not doing something.  Something that makes perfect sense technically may be very wrong business-wise.

I always thought it was my responsibility as an engineer to provide my management with the best technical information I could and a decision based on that information.  It was also my responsibilty to accept their decision (provided of course it was not illegal or immoral).
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BernardLanguillier

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2006, 06:50:51 pm »

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The idea of competing with other Canon products seems plausible (high end p&s vs. low end DSLR).  Such competion simply isn't good business.  Maybe Canon does know what they are doing and their own business after all.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89243\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is very possible indeed. In Japan at least, the Ixus line, G7 and 400d are featured in the same leaflet...

The other DSLR get a different one.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 04:01:27 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Ray

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2006, 06:03:13 am »

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Ray, you have it backwards. Canon is saying that their firmware RAW conversion is better than ACR, Capture One, and any other RAW converter, and their in-camera noise reduction is better than Neat Image, Noise Ninja, and all of the other noise reduction tools out there, or if not better, then at least close enough that it's not worth your bother to try, and by the way, we're not even going to let you do that. That's pretty bold and arrogant on Canon's part, and Canon has not offered one shred of proof to bolster their claims. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89223\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's not my interpretation of what Canon is saying. Rather, they are saying that their in-camera noise reduction is better than the default, easy settings of ACR, Capture One and Neat Image type noise reduction programs, that would generally appeal to users of P&S cameras. In other words, to better Canon's in-camera processing, starting from a truly dreadful RAW image, you'd have to have the skills, patience and dedication of a Jonathan Wienke.

In my view, some posters in this thread are forgetting an important principle that cuts across all picture making, 'use the best tool for the job'. It's fanciful to think that a G7 with a RAW mode could compete with the 400D's RAW mode. Canon is being very sensible in protecting gullible consumers from making a wrong choice. You should thank them. Had they provided a RAW mode for the G7, you can bet your bottom dollar there'd be thousands of additional buyers of the G7 kidding themselves that their miniature camera was as good as a 400D, then regretting their purchase when the facts came to light and they later saw real world comparisons on the net between the RAW capability of both cameras. What are we comparing... 10m 2micron pixels with 10m 5.5 micron pixels? What is there to protect except the gullibility of the consumer!
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mcanyes

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2006, 09:06:52 am »

The G7 raw debate reminds me of the Leica Digilux 2 I had a few years ago. It had raw, but raw was very slow, and I had to work pretty hard to get better results than the default JPEGs. It was nice to have around if I thought I would have a lot of trouble with a shot, but I never really used it much.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 09:18:11 am by mcanyes »
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Michael Canyes
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Jonathan Wienke

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2006, 09:36:50 am »

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In my view, some posters in this thread are forgetting an important principle that cuts across all picture making, 'use the best tool for the job'. It's fanciful to think that a G7 with a RAW mode could compete with the 400D's RAW mode. Canon is being very sensible in protecting gullible consumers from making a wrong choice. You should thank them.



I thank Canon because I'm being screwed out of the option of RAW processing by their retarded marketing department when I'm deployed and DSLRs are too heavy/bulky to carry around when I'm already loaded down woth 60+ pounds of armor, ammo, supplies, a weapon, and other gear, and what I need is something small and light that can still capture a reasonably good image without imposing itself excessively on the final result.

I thank Canon because I have to buy a less-capable camera from another, less arrogant, manufacturer, but with an incompatible flash mount and an incompatible memory card format, so I have to buy a whole new set of flash cards and accessories.

I thank Canon because they are denying me the option of the best tool for the job on the basis of a bunch of egotistical, arrogrant, and paranoid marketing BS.

Yes, it's fanciful to think that a G7 can compete with a 400D or any other DSLR on a pixel-to-pixel basis. Which is an excellent argument against deliberately crippling the G7 to "protect" the 400D against something it doesn't need protection from.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 09:37:45 am by Jonathan Wienke »
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howiesmith

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2006, 10:12:49 am »

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In my view, some posters in this thread are forgetting an important principle that cuts across all picture making, 'use the best tool for the job'.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't really agree "'use the best tool for the job," but rather use the best tool you have for the job.  A G7 with RAW isn't the best tool, or even the best tool you have.  It just isn't.  At best, it is just another dream camera.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 10:14:19 am by howiesmith »
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jeffok

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2006, 02:44:58 am »

This is an awful long thread for and the issue has been beaten to death. So here's a suggestion...
Buy a Lumix LX2- you'll get 10 MP, a 16:9 format, almost all the control features of a DSLR in a very attractive retro syle case  AND, it has RAW. Why keep lamenting over the fact that one manufacturer chooses to limit the feature set when a perfectly good alternative is available now? I looked at both of these cameras and chose the LX2 and yes, it can be noisier than the G7 in some lighting situations. But you can clean up the noise quite nicely in Silkypix (almost worth the price of the camera itself) and, after all, you all wanted to work in RAW anyway so.....
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BernardLanguillier

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2006, 04:04:59 am »

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This is an awful long thread for and the issue has been beaten to death. So here's a suggestion...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89666\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We should perhaps now start another thread called "Why do people talk so much about the lack of RAW on the G7?".

You are right, a shortcoming ends up generating more visibility for this camera than it probably deserves.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ray

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2006, 06:14:06 am »

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"Why do people talk so much about the lack of RAW on the G7?".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Answer: Because they've been hoodwinked into believing that RAW is a panacea for all image deficiencies. We like to believe in miracles and we also like good conspiracy theories. Consider the popularity of the Da Vinci Code.

The amount of hot air generated is often inversely proportional to the quantity of facts presented. I've seen no comparisons in this long thread so far demonstrating the amazing capabilities of RAW mode in a P&S camera, whether it be the G6 or the Lumix LX2. Why is that? Could it be there's nothing much to shout about?

Let's suppose we could get a consensus of opinion as to a percentage increase in image quality that potentially could be achieved using RAW instead of fine jpeg. Whatever percentage that may be, lets call it 10% for argument's sake and let's focus on dynamic range which seems to be the one thing one cannot recover from a processed jpeg. (One can always get an improved white balance with some stuffing around, even if it means placing a grey card in the scene.)

With DSLRs such as the 20D and 5D one can probably recover, on average, about 0.75 of a stop of DR without blowing any color channels. In other words, an apparent over-exposure of 0.75 EV results in a full exposure to the right, something which one cannot achieve with a jpeg shot. The same exposure in jpeg mode would result in irretrievably blown highlights. People who use DSLRs in jpeg mode are depriving themselves of about 0.75 stops of dynamic range, but that's only a rough figure that varies with scene content of course. With grey skies one can recover sometimes as much as 1.5 stops. With very saturated colors, apparent over-exposure would have to be less than 0.75 stops.

Whether the DR gain is 0.35 stops or 1.5 stops, it's significant and worthwhile with a camera that has a respectable DR to begin with. I can only guess what the relationship might be between pixel pitch and DR in cameras with the same pixel count. Comparing a 2 micron pixel with a 6 micron pixel, I tend to think that RAW capability might give us, on average, a 1/10th of a stop DR advantage over jpeg, for the same amount of work and skill.

Is this what you guys are screaming about? Canon, please gives us the opportunity to spend hours of our time recovering 1/10th of a stop of DR with sophisticated desktop programs and RAW converters.
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mcanyes

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2006, 08:32:59 am »

The only possible answer to this question is: Because Canon did not put it there. Anything else is speculation. I am going to draw a line in the sand with my saber. Anyone who wants to take photographs with their G7 cross that line. Anyone who wants to spend their time speculating about raw, don't cross the line.
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Michael Canyes
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bjanes

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2006, 09:05:04 am »

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We should perhaps now start another thread called "Why do people talk so much about the lack of RAW on the G7?".

You are right, a shortcoming ends up generating more visibility for this camera than it probably deserves.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

People are upset at the arrogance of Canon for not including raw, which they could have done at minimal expense. Whether or not raw would be a significant advantage for that type of camera is in doubt, but that is a decision that the user would like to make for himself/herself.

As many will recall, many Nikon users were incensed when Nikon encrypted the white balance of their SLRs. The users wanted to have a choice of raw converters. The Nikon decision was clearly for market control reasons, but Canon's motives are unclear.
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John Sheehy

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2006, 11:14:46 am »

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Is this what you guys are screaming about? Canon, please gives us the opportunity to spend hours of our time recovering 1/10th of a stop of DR with sophisticated desktop programs and RAW converters.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89673\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's not 1/10 stop.  It's at least a stop in the red channel in the highlights, recoverable for chlouds, white shirts, ets.  Depending on where they draw the whitepoint in the JPEG algorithm, there may be more in the green channel as well.

Any difference in amplification between different horizontal and vertical lines in the image are locked in for all time in a JPEG, as are any of the host of artifacts that Canon ignores in their RAW data.

I think you are going quite overboard in trivializing the differences between RAW and JPEG.

The potential benefits of having RAW far outweigh the trivial cost (if any) of implementing RAW in the camera.

The problem here is extreme arrogance on Canon's part; that they know better than all the consumers, and that they're the only ones who can interpret RAW data.
That is quite far from the truth.
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John Sheehy

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2006, 11:18:38 am »

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I don't really agree "'use the best tool for the job," but rather use the best tool you have for the job.  A G7 with RAW isn't the best tool, or even the best tool you have.  It just isn't.  At best, it is just another dream camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89396\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The only thing keeping this dream from being reality is corporate arrogance.  There is no technological or cost barrier.  They are either trying to steer serious G4, 5, and 6 users to DSLRs, or are just not willing to deal with tech-support calls from people who can't find their files.
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Ray

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #73 on: December 10, 2006, 11:19:47 am »

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People are upset at the arrogance of Canon for not including raw
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89692\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Arrogance? How can that be? Canon have already explained through Chuck Westfall that they didn't think the inclusion of RAW would be a worthwhile benefit in the G7, considering the extremely small pixels. I read this to mean that to get a decent picture with in-camera processing, the Canon team had to pull a few rabbits out of the hat. The message is clear. There's nothing much more to be got from a RAW image, even with sophisticated desktop programs. There's nothing in this thread that disproves this message.

I'm repeating for the third time, show me the evidence with jpeg/RAW samples from another 10mp P&S, such as the Lumix LX2, or a lower pixel count camera such as the Canon G6.
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Ray

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #74 on: December 10, 2006, 11:32:37 am »

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It's not 1/10 stop.  It's at least a stop in the red channel in the highlights, recoverable for chlouds, white shirts, ets.  Depending on where they draw the whitepoint in the JPEG algorithm, there may be more in the green channel as well.

Once again, John, give us the evidence that these figures apply to a 2 micron photodiode. I know you've written extensively about the potential of increased dynamic range with the Canon 20D through the use of filters to correct the imbalance in channel sensitivity, but what evidence do you have to support an assumption that the same principle applies to the G7. How do you know that Canon have not addressed such problems with the G7 with their in-camera processing.

We need more facts. Let those people who already own P&S cameras with a RAW mode come forth and demonstrate the RAW advantages.
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howiesmith

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #75 on: December 10, 2006, 03:01:22 pm »

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People are upset at the arrogance of Canon for not including raw, which they could have done at minimal expense.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89692\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Canon seems less arrogant than those who think (and pcan provide no basis) they know and can manage Canon's business better than Canon can.

No basis for cost that I have seen except for some hand waving and "I think."
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jani

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #76 on: December 10, 2006, 04:50:59 pm »

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Canon seems less arrogant than those who think (and pcan provide no basis) they know and can manage Canon's business better than Canon can.

No basis for cost that I have seen except for some hand waving and "I think."
To the non-technical people a technical person's estimates and caveats will always seem like "hand waving".

But that doesn't mean that the opinions are unqualified.

Your accusation of arrogance while simultaneously dismissing experienced programmers' opinions on programming is a nice show of double standards.

What are your qualifications for having any opinions on such programming?

Or is it just hand waving, too?
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Jan

Jonathan Wienke

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #77 on: December 10, 2006, 05:17:16 pm »

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We need more facts. Let those people who already own P&S cameras with a RAW mode come forth and demonstrate the RAW advantages.

WTF do you think I've been talking about this whole thread? I've been shooting RAW with the Olympus SP-350, and the differences between the camera JPEGs and what I can get from RAW are NOT trivial. Color from ACR (after being calibrated with Tom Fors' script) is far more accurate than camera JPEGs. White balance calculated in-camera is OK, but not awesome, and is frequently off a bit, so being able to set the exact correct WB in ACR is a very good thing. I can get an additional stop of DR from the highlights in ACR over the camera JPEGs. And the ability to apply my own tone curve in ACR is much preferable to applying a comparable curve on the JPEG; less posterization/banding and color shifts. And of course NR is more effective when one can use the tools on 16-bit data that hasn't been mucked up with JPEG artifacts and 8-bit conversion, and one can adjust the noise reduction settings to match the specific image.

The magnitude of difference I see between Olympus camera JPEGs and RAW is comparable the magnitude of difference between Canon DSLR RAWs and JPEGs, but with smaller format cameras, taking every possible technical advantage is more important, because smaller-format camera files have more technical shortcomings than those from DSLRs; higher noise, less DR, etc. You have to work the digicam files harder to get a good result (technically) than the DSLR files. Therefore, having RAW support in small-format cameras is even more important than having it in DSLRs. Olympus is obviously making a profit selling a camera with RAW support for <$250 (I paid $239 for mine), so the cost for including it can't possibly that great.
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bjanes

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2006, 05:23:31 pm »

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Canon seems less arrogant than those who think (and pcan provide no basis) they know and can manage Canon's business better than Canon can.

No basis for cost that I have seen except for some hand waving and "I think."
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I do not think that photographers who prefer raw processing are arrogant; many valid reasons for using raw have been given. Even though the advantages of raw might not be that great for this particular camera, experienced and highly qualified photographers such as our esteemed host have decried the absence of raw in this camera.

Microsoft may know their business when they make use of anti-competitive behavior, but that does not mean we have to like it. Some users use the Mac in protest.
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BernardLanguillier

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This is why no RAW on the G7
« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2006, 05:51:18 pm »

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As many will recall, many Nikon users were incensed when Nikon encrypted the white balance of their SLRs. The users wanted to have a choice of raw converters. The Nikon decision was clearly for market control reasons, but Canon's motives are unclear.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89692\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's an interesting example indeed because:

- The people who were most vocal about this were non Nikon users (MR and Jeff Schewe to cite 2) - which is a clear common point with the Canon G7 (most people in this thread don't own one),

- Nikon being motivated by market control is just yet another hypothesis that is not backed up by facts. Nikon has never suied any of the companies that reversed engineered the very weak "encryption", and also released a mini-SDK for those companies like Adobe who didn't want to reverse engineer that part of the raw file. The whole story just showed that Nikon had not properlly understood the (North American) market and not anticipated the consequences of a mostly technical decision.

This might be another common point with Canon or so it would seem if you consider that LL forum participants are representative of the potential G7 customers (which I don't really think).

Cheers,
Bernard
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