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Author Topic: My Dream Pocket Camera  (Read 9208 times)

Bobtrips

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My Dream Pocket Camera
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2006, 01:50:30 pm »

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You're right about live histogram, though I've found that the "live" histogram is not always the same as the exposure histogram. My SP-350's live histogram is off by about +2/3 EV. And I did mention a detachable tilt/swivel viewfinder on the wish list.
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My "live feed" comment was more about an EVF advantage as opposed to being specific to your ideal pocket camera.  

Being able to feed the "image that I'd get if I snapped right now" to a studio monitor frees the photographer from having to return to the viewfinder to check the setup.

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Fully articulated like the Canon S3 IS would be a great thing.

Having a detachable viewfinder would be interesting.  If it were truly detachable with some range and with remote controls over shutter speed, aperture, zoom, etc.  it would make for some interesting wildlife shots.  Strap it to a branch close to a bird nest, close to a watering hole, along a deer trail....

But I suspect that would be a bit too large a setup for a pocket camera.

Could be sold separately as long as the camera had send/receive capability.


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And pocket.  If we're talking exchangeable lenses then with a short zoom or prime the camera might fit into ones pocket.  And the longer lens(es) in a different pocket.

This is getting close to an ideal travel camera IMO.  Small and lightweight.  But with sufficient high ISO ability and DR to take things a good step past current offerings.
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mulga bill

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« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2006, 05:53:41 am »

i could'nt agree more with some of your comments and experience wise you are way in front of me,but i would like to add my feelings about compact digital cameras to your post if you will.I've just changed from an eos3 to my first digital 5D and i'm struggling to keep up with it at times and only practice and time shooting will cure that...it seems to take twenty or so shots to 'warm up' you know?

My only digital compact is a panasonic lumix lz1 and while it's a bit bulky and sometimes falls out of my top pocket while using my main outfit (thank God i played indoor basketball at high school!) it seems to produce good shots and just feels right...am i into holy grail territory yet? and i'd like a sony T7 sometimes but the lens in the lumix holds me there,dunno if i could part with it.Any thoughts on the sony optics?

Judging by what i see here in aus whenever i go to a camera retailer is that every man and his dog is buying up big on compacts and not just one...digi-cams they will happily buy for a grand but expect to pay half that for what they see as 'just' a camera.I'm no marketing guru and can't think of a good marketing angle at this moment but?...and there's a lot of snobbery value amongst 'camera' devotees in owning a particular model of canon or nikon lens/body i believe...whoops!!! gotta go...i think i can hear incoming.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2006, 10:16:52 am »

Some clarifications:

Yes "non-retrofocus" = "short back focus". If this principle has to be fudged a little for wide/ultrawide lenses, I don't have an issue with that; they are generally the least bulky of lenses anyway. Design the lenses to cover a 2X crop sensor (12x18mm) and have the shortest practical back focus needed to work well.

I don't mind a body that is M8-sized when the lenses are detachable. I'm sure a 150mm f/2 (actual FL) prime telephoto lens is going to be at least 6 inches long and going to have an objective diameter of approximately 3 inches. But If I don't need that long of a lens on the camera, a 25mm f/2 prime (a "normal lens" on a 2x crop sensor) would be a bit over an inch long and have an objective diameter of about half an inch. That would still fit on a body that could be a bit smaller than an M8 and go in a cargo pocket.

I'm envisioning the body having an EVF for bright sunny conditions when the LCD would be difficult to see, and the articulated, detachable LCD for situations where previewing and shooting away from the camera would be desirable. To save space in the body, the viewfinder module could quick-connect to the body; one could choose to attach the EVF, the articulated LCD, or an adapter to connect a large external monitor.

As to brand loyalty/snobbery, this whole thread is the antithesis of that; if any manufacturer made something that matched what I'm describing here, I'd be tempted to part with my Canon DSLRs to purchase it. Canon, Nikon, Leica, Olympus, K-M, whatever.
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John Camp

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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2006, 10:49:59 am »

The key question here is size -- the more stuff you add, and the faster the lens, the bigger it gets. After a certain point, it no longer matters much. Whether you shoot a huge clunk like the 1DsII, or the Leica M8, if you're going to have a range of focal lengths, you'll have to carry an extra bag. And that, to my mind, is the dividing line between pocket cameras and enthusiast and pro cameras -- the bag.
 
To my mind, a pocket camera is one that you don't have to carry an extra bag for -- everything is on the camera except perhaps the charger, which you could pack separately. The Canon G7 has most of what you need in a pocket camea: it's very compact, with a compact charger and good low-light performance (if the low light performance is good enpough, you can get by with an f4 lens to cut bulk.) It needs faster data transfer and RAW and the articulated LCD; the previous version of it did have RAW, so that should be no problem; several small Canons, like the Powershot Pro 1, have had really good articulated screens, so that should be on the shelf, too. The Pro-1 also had a "L" glass lens. Data transfer might take a little more bulk, but the G7 is so small that it could take a bit more; and it also has a OVF in addition to the live LCD. Add an "L" quality lens, and 4x zoom from ~28-120, and I think you'd have to beat back the crowds at the camera store. The G7 sells for around $600, I think (can't remember.) I bet you could get this kind of upgrade for under $1,000.

JC
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howiesmith

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My Dream Pocket Camera
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2006, 11:15:12 am »

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The key question here is size -- the more stuff you add, and the faster the lens, the bigger it gets.

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This is true in the real world, but in Fantasyland, the camera can get even smaller and cheaper.
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aaykay

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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2006, 11:20:56 am »

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The G7 sells for around $600, I think (can't remember.) I bet you could get this kind of upgrade for under $1,000.

JC
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I don't think the intent from the OP was for a pocketable small sensor camera (1/8" or 1/2.5" or even 2/3" etc), which are a dime a dozen, including the G7.  Some other alternatives were the Sony V1 (1/8" 5mp) or V3 (1.8" 7.2mp) both of them with the same Carl Zeiss vario-sonnar etc.  There are a bevy of other options too, among the noisy small sensored brethren.

I think the objective was for a pocketable camera with a decent 1.6x or 2x type of relatively large sensor.  That is where the lens challenges come in, in terms of size, weight, cost, max aperture etc., when pocketability is a prime consideration.

For comparison, the Sony R1 with a 14.3-71mm f2.8-4.8 lens is a chunky specimen, since its 1.68x sensor's size will necessitate a lens that is large enough to cover the 1.68x imaging circle.  The only way the lens could be contained to the present size (also factoring in the final camera price), was to have a relatively small f4.8 at its tele end.  The advantage was that the lens went to a unavailable-among-the-digicams-natively-without-adapters, 24mm equiv, on the wide-end with an f2.8 max aperture and a reasonably long 120mm equiv on the long end (where the max aperture reduces to f4.8).
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 11:28:35 am by aaykay »
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2006, 01:15:41 pm »

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I don't think the intent from the OP was for a pocketable small sensor camera (1/8" or 1/2.5" or even 2/3" etc), ....

I think the objective was for a pocketable camera with a decent 1.6x or 2x type of relatively large sensor.  That is where the lens challenges come in, in terms of size, weight, cost, max aperture etc., when pocketability is a prime consideration.

OK, how about we go back to the world of film and see what was possible there?

I grabbed the specs for a Canon Elph Z3.  That's an APS film camera with a 2.3x 23.5-54 mm eq. f4.8-f7.6 lens.

It's 1.3" x 3.7" x 2.5".

Not a fast lens, but if the lens was interchangeable so that one could put on some faster glass when needed....

And if the Fuji Super CCD was used to allow higher ISO settings.

Puff it up a big for the extra electronics needed.  Make it taller which would also allow a decent LCD screen.  You've got something that would fit in the pocket of some semi-tight jeans.

Perhaps the lens would have to store close to the sensor and extend out under use to minimize the film/digital difference in strike angle.
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aaykay

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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2006, 04:08:47 pm »

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Regarding IR, the idea I had was making the sensor cover glass twice as wide as the sensor, and only coat one half of it with the IR block. Slide it to the left, IR is filtered out; slide it to the right, IR is allowed through.

Regarding your original IR idea, the Sony DSC V3, the DSC V1 and the DSC F828 uses an IR filter that slides out of the way automatically when they do their "Nightshot/Nightframing" shooting.

In "Nightshot", the filter slides completely out of its way, and an IR image is shot (within the range of the built-in IR emitter).

In "Nightframing" mode (which generates a full color image in total darkness), the IR filter slides out of its way, enabling focusing using the IR emitters and once focus locks, the IR filter slides back into place and the picture is taken using the flash (either built-in flash or an external hotshoe enabled flash).  It also uses Laser Hologram AF for near lag-free focus in ***total darkness*** and also **low light** conditions.

Pretty cool, even though Sony has not introduced another camera since the V3 with their nightshot/nightframing/LaserHologramAF.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscv3/
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf828/
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscv1/

All the 3 models above, come with a metal (magnesium-alloy) body and have nightshot/nightframing/LaserHologramAF, in addition to all kinds of manual controls (including shutter/aperture/WB/ISO/spot-focusing/spot-metering etc) and a hotshoe.

The V3 and the F828 have RAW and the F828 comes with a FAST f2.0-2.8 Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar lens that covers the 28mm-200mm range (2/3" sensor).  The V1 is tiny but does not come with RAW.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 04:13:36 pm by aaykay »
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