Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film  (Read 13144 times)

Prognathous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« on: November 15, 2006, 05:33:07 am »

In terms of image quality, how does digital MF compares with large format film scanned with a drum scanner?

Thanks!

Prog.
Logged

francois

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13792
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2006, 07:06:52 am »

Quote
In terms of image quality, how does digital MF compares with large format film scanned with a drum scanner?

Thanks!

Prog.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Does Michael's article [a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/back-testing.shtml]Measuring Megabytes[/url] provide some answers?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 07:08:37 am by francois »
Logged
Francois

Prognathous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2006, 07:19:02 am »

Thanks! The article does answer most of my questions, though it doesn't deal with 8x10. Do you think a drum-scanned 8x10 would a have a clear advantage over the P45?

One last question - how common are 8x10 nowadays? Do many pros still use them?

Prog.
Logged

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2006, 08:06:30 am »

Drum scanning 8X10 film will cost between $100 and $200 per file, if you can find someone to do it.

You'll also end up with a 500-1000 MB file, which could be problematic to work with.

You might see a difference in prints bigger than maybe 20X24". But, then again you'd have to shoot with an 8X10 camera. Have you ever done this? It's not something to be undertaken lightly.

Figure in as well $5 - $20 per frame in film and processing costs (B&W or colour), the cost of film holders (you'll need more than a few for a day's shooting), and one has to ask – why bother?

If it's something you're already doing, and you understand the issues, then fine. But if not, the image quality advantages have to be weighed against the costs and practical issues.

Michael
Logged

Prognathous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2006, 09:44:48 am »

Thanks for the very informative post, Michael.

I'm actually just asking from curiosity, I don't have any pressing need to shoot film, let alone large-format.

BTW, are there any fields were the improved image quality of 8x10 is considered a must? Someone told me that aerial photography is one such field, but it still seems odd (especially if one factors in the costs).

Prog.
Logged

jani

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1624
    • Øyet
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2006, 09:51:25 am »

Quote
BTW, are there any fields were the improved image quality of 8x10 is considered a must? Someone told me that aerial photography is one such field, but it still seems odd (especially if one factors in the costs).
Considering that aerial photography often has been government-sponsored, perhaps the cost isn't so bad after all.

See also the Gigapxl Project for alternative use, though that is of 9x18 film.
Logged
Jan

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2006, 09:59:53 am »

No, aerial photography is definately not done with 8X10". It is done with very specialized cameras, almost exclusively now digital rather than film.

I know that one major European aerial survey company is using Phase One backs, and, simply as a matter of interest, that some of these backs have now exceeded 1 million exposures.

Michael
Logged

Jack Flesher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2592
    • www.getdpi.com
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2006, 10:07:57 am »

I shoot large format and scan for output, so can share some first-hand experiences...  It's not an undertaking for the meek.

Michael pretty much nailed it, but left out a few tidbits -- the main one being dust.  If you think digital sensors get dusty, just wait until you start loading your own sheet film and then later scanning it!  

I have an uber clean film loading environment and still manage to get a few dusts on my sheet film.  The film goes out of my control dust-wise when I send it off the lab for processing, but for sure, it comes back dusty.  I clean religeously before I scan.  An 8x10 scanned at 1600 LPI is huge -- and my *normal* clone/clean time for a single scan is about an hour...  

Is the effort worth it for the quality?  I think so...  An 8x10 scanned at 1600 LPI generates a file that can be printed *uninterpolated* at 300 PPI to 40x50 inches.  The detail is phenomenal at that size even when you stick your nose in the print.  So for me, shooting 8x10 is worth it for a killer image, but I realize it isn't going to suit everybody.  

As for cost...  You can get a good used 8x10 camera for $1000. Add in another $1500 for two good lenses.  Add in another $500 for holders and change tent and another $500 for a good loupe and meter.  You are at $3500 for a basic outfit.  Color sheet film runs about $7 per sheet and most labs charge around that to process it, so figure roughly $14 per frame and bump it up to $15 to cover screw ups which you will make even after you are eperienced.   Add in $100 for a quality drum scan of say every 10th image and it will take about 1000 frames to cover the cost of a current High-Res digital back.  

But then there is productivity...  Prolific 8x10 landscape shooters probably only shoot 200 sheets of 8x10 in a year unless they are working on a very special project.  Prolific MF digital back landscape shooters will shoot 200 frames in a single day...  And I can guarantee you they don't spend an hour cleaning/cloning their dirtiest file before getting on with processing and printing it.

,

Cheers,
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 01:57:08 pm by Jack Flesher »
Logged
Jack
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/

Jack Flesher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2592
    • www.getdpi.com
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2006, 08:19:49 pm »

PS: I just posted some examples of 8x10 scans and crops form a recent trip on my blog, but there are some big files there so give them a minute to load: www.jack.omniblog.com .

Cheers,
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 08:20:49 pm by Jack Flesher »
Logged
Jack
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/

Stephen Best

  • Guest
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2006, 08:35:58 pm »

Quote
Thanks! The article does answer most of my questions, though it doesn't deal with 8x10. Do you think a drum-scanned 8x10 would a have a clear advantage over the P45?

One last question - how common are 8x10 nowadays? Do many pros still use them?

Prog.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85381\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The wisdom these days is that there's little advantage in 8x10 over 4x5. With modern films (Fujichrome etc) you don't hit grain until scan resolutions over 2000ppi which gives something like a 24x30 clean print at 360ppi from 4x5. Where 8x10 holds its own is B&W contact prints onto silver or platinum/palladium. Some people find 4x5 cameras "pokey" though. Personally, I think 4x5 is a good compromise between quality and cost, especially when you have to lug it all around.

Compared with backs like the P45, the cost of entry to 4x5 is cheap. You also get the advantage of movements which I understand is impractical with MF backs in the field. Film, processing and scanning can be quite an expense if you're doing any volume. It's best to learn with B&W and do your own processing etc. I don't have a problem with dust etc and have been using a cheap changing bag which I've had for ages and just give a good shake before loading/unloading the holders. Depending on the scanner you'll pick up some gunk but it's a lot easier to deal with than scanning 35mm. Apart from dynamic range I see little advantage to using digital in the field as the tiny screen on the back itself isn't going to tell you whether it's a keeper ... probably less information than you'll glean from the ground glass and a loupe. This assumes you've got your exposure nailed which isn't hard. I think large format film will be around for some time, though finding labs to process it will get harder.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 11:28:14 pm by Stephen Best »
Logged

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2006, 02:43:27 am »

Quote
. I think large format film will be around for some time, though finding labs to process it will get harder.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85538\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

you can buy a good used drumscanner now for 2000$, which has the advantages that you will not have to deal with dust, after you learned to scan wet,- also not big deal to buy a jobo atl processing machine if there is no lab around....
i prefer digital, but 4x5" isnt dead at all, at least in architecture shooting.
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

Stephen Best

  • Guest
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2006, 03:22:32 am »

Quote
also not big deal to buy a jobo atl processing machine if there is no lab around....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I had thought about a Jobo. I've kept the plumbing (filters and mixer) from my old darkroom in readiness. I'm not too happy about the environmentals of E6 soup though. If you look at it, apart from consumables (film, chemicals, paper, ink) there's nothing further I need for the next decade! Maybe by then you'll be able to buy self-contained 4x5 digital inserts at reasonable cost, but I'm not holding out for this.
Logged

ndevlin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 679
    • Follow me on Twitter
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2006, 08:37:33 am »

'Quality'  is only one aspect of this discussion.  Shooting with a view camera is so different an experience than shooting with a dslr that it's a stretch to lump them into the same class of activity.

I know of very few photographers who truly enjoy small-format camera work who also really enjoy photographing with a 4x5 or 8x10 (and I mean seriously photographing, as opposed to the occasional fun frolic), and vice-versa.

The slow, contemplative, minutively involved approach required by view cameras can be tremendously satisfying and produce stunning results, or stunningly frustrating with results barely better than really well executed MF work.  It's really a matter of taste and personal creative style.

The question as to whether you 'should' shoot view has, at the end of the day, virtually nothing to do with the output qualityyou desire.  Truth is that modern digicams can produce professional grade results that match 4x5 or 8x10 for virtually any application other than gigantic prints or alternative processes requiring contact prints (though I suspect that an 8x10 negative produced on a LVT from a hi-res digital file will be better than most film originals, since you gain all the benefits of post-production in Photoshop!)

Buy a cheap 4x5 field camera used for a couple of hundred bucks with some holders, add a decent 150mm lens, and go shoot.  Shoot a couple of boxes of Tri-X of HP5+ (the grain is irrelevant and you'll need the speed).  See if anything about the exercise appeals to you.  Then take it from there.
Logged
Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

Jack Flesher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2592
    • www.getdpi.com
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2006, 12:22:51 pm »

Quote
you can buy a good used drumscanner now for 2000$, which has the advantages that you will not have to deal with dust, after you learned to scan wet,-
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've been considering this path myself.  My main question is how much of a pain in the butt is it to clean the scanning fluid off the negative after the scan?
Logged
Jack
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2006, 05:03:01 pm »

Quote
I've been considering this path myself.  My main question is how much of a pain in the butt is it to clean the scanning fluid off the negative after the scan?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

no problem, kami has self-disappearing fluid which is very thin and works perfect. no cleanin required anymore..... the only bad thing is that you need to have drums made out of 100% pure acryl, anyway most are. if its an acryl-plastic mix the drum become damaged after a while.
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

Jack Flesher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2592
    • www.getdpi.com
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2006, 05:09:14 pm »

Quote
no problem, kami has self-disappearing fluid which is very thin and works perfect. no cleanin required anymore..... the only bad thing is that you need to have drums made out of 100% pure acryl, anyway most are. if its an acryl-plastic mix the drum become damaged after a while.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85688\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well I have a line on an older Howtek 4500 -- may be worth a shot
Logged
Jack
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/

pss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 960
    • http://www.schefz.com
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2006, 06:31:13 pm »

8x10 has a clear advantage over anything else out there (4x the negative size of 4x5)...if you need detail 8x10 is the way to go...handling it is another question....4x5 does not really have any clear advantages over a P45 (in regards to detail) so the much much harder workflow is ....a user preference....
my last 4x5 was a toyo field camera, super light and small, only used the preloaded fuji film ...much easier to deal with, no loading/unloading, no dust....was a fun toy, but unless you make huuuuge prints, not really worth the effort....the real advantage of 4x5/8x10 is of ocurse the T/S, R/F on front and back...and all this can also be achieved by mounting the P45 on a 4x5 camera....and when stitching the files, the detail of 8x10 can be achieved from a P45 on a 4x5 camera with much less effort and hassle (and in the long run, a lot less money...) and if the files are digitized anyway and printed on a inkjet/whatever...there is no "analog advantage" anyway......
in the oooooold days, people had a horse draw carriage with a darkroom set up in the back...made the emulsion themselves, applied it to the plates, took the shot and processed the plates....all somewhere in the middle of nowhere...it worked...until they died an early death from the vapors (but that is a different story)....i know a guy who used to shoot daguerrotypes....had to make his own plates too....there is no logic behind this, but that is what he needed to get his point across....
from a practical standpoint, digital is the way to go, but that does not mean anything....
i think of all film, 4x5 and 8x10 will be around the longest, there is more to it then just logic and detail....there is a rythum, a certain celebration of the image....has to be experienced to understand....

on a sidenote....i heard of a lab in NYC (beth...something) that will offer an enlarger that will enable users to print digital files onto photopaper...it literally lets you print from a digital negative....
Logged

Stephen Best

  • Guest
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2006, 08:19:28 pm »

Quote
the real advantage of 4x5/8x10 is of ocurse the T/S, R/F on front and back...and all this can also be achieved by mounting the P45 on a 4x5 camera....and when stitching the files, the detail of 8x10 can be achieved from a P45 on a 4x5 camera with much less effort and hassle (and in the long run, a lot less money...)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Have you actually done this?
Logged

pss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 960
    • http://www.schefz.com
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2006, 08:29:06 pm »

i have stitched a smaller back on a 4x5, not a P45...yes of course it can be done....LF lenses obviously cover the whole back, the P45 only uses a fraction of the available circle...there might be issues with lens cast....definitely not point and shoot, but imagine 6 stitched 40mb files....no grain....as long as you have a camera that supports enough back movements, no problem.....
people do the same thing with DSLRs...cambo sells a large format with just that in mind....
Logged

Stephen Best

  • Guest
Medium Format Digital vs. Large Format film
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2006, 09:16:52 pm »

Quote
i have stitched a smaller back on a 4x5, not a P45...yes of course it can be done....LF lenses obviously cover the whole back, the P45 only uses a fraction of the available circle...there might be issues with lens cast....definitely not point and shoot, but imagine 6 stitched 40mb files....no grain....as long as you have a camera that supports enough back movements, no problem.....
people do the same thing with DSLRs...cambo sells a large format with just that in mind....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85727\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The reason I ask is because all the evidence I've read supports the observation that the P45 is pretty well impossible to focus with tilts in the field (tethered or in a studio it may be a different story). This you'd expect from the negligible depth of focus at optimal apertures for the back. Not to mention lens cast issues. Also, by using a lens with the full coverage required for stitching, aren't you reducing the potential quality you'd get from a P45 with its increased pixel density?

Not that I'm likely to spend the bucks required to get myself a P45 as I already have something that works. I think Dalsa's TDI technology could well be a more viable solution for large format shooters in the future.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up