leaf aptus 65 centerfolding issues?? image inside

[Shachar]

James is doing something smart. He is using an old school camera, the Contax, which is reliable, and an old back, the A22, which works.

The industry is now geared to pre-releasing products with the latest features.  Nobody wastes engineering resources to fix issues because the next product needs to come out. So the issues don't get fixed. Leaf's A team is on the new stuff, as in every company. The B team is not making headway.

If that camera were a car, and it left people standing on the highway as often, they'd'd be demanding a fix rather than waiting so meekly for it.

As for my Leica M8, I am attaching a picture I made with it, in Jpeg mode. Don't worry, the Raws are equally bad.  Faults are circled in black. *NOTICE THE ARTEFACT ON THE RIGHT CUSTOMER'S BACK*, the hard magenta edges at places, the magenta casts, and the strange plum coloring of the coats (IR sensitivity).  It's clear that this camera ws released way to early. WHICH IS WHAT EVERYBODY IN THE TECH INDUSTRY IS NOW DOING. Putting the A team on development, and the F team on fixing issues.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85092\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Edmund,

We do not have at Leaf any "F teams" nor "F" people. Our highest priority is always to fix problems that our customers face.
In addition, the main reason for my posts here is to keep our customers informed.

Shachar
Leaf

[Fritzer]

Sounds like a bunch of BS to me from Mr Leaf.  Glad you posted this...Leaf has too many problems to be in business.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84987\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Foul language and uninformed generalisation do not really add to the discussion; I for one appreciate it when the reps of a company show up in public and comment on issues.
If their postings don't satisfy you, just ask the questions you want answered, it worked before.

[eronald]

Foul language and uninformed generalisation do not really add to the discussion; I for one appreciate it when the reps of a company show up in public and comment on issues.
If their postings don't satisfy you, just ask the questions you want answered, it worked before.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Shahar

 Let's be constructive.

 It is clear that your company knows about this problem and cares about its customers. The problem hasn't been solved -yet- becauase it is a hard problem.

 As a tech guy, I know how hard it is to fix an old product - you have to decide what you can afford to change, and what has to remain untouched, whether a fix is at all economically feasible. Then you need to recreate a tool chain, dig out and  reinstall old version SDKs, dig up old documentation, schematics and supplier specs.

 It's much faster to fix a bug in something under development, where all the information is at your fingertips and everythin can be changed, than in a frozen product where you first need to turn back the time-machine.

 Unfortunately, from the time this problem has been around, and the reality of this run-run-run business, the more time passes, the more unlikely a technical fix will be implemented. Not because it cannot be done but because you only have so many tech guys, and several new products in development.

 Maybe a cheap upgrade to the next model would be the best solution for everybody ? A way to remove the problematic backs from the market, and also a way to free up the tech teams - also, this is a business decision that can be made by the business guys alone, and last not least it might even bring in some money.

 As a rep I am sure that you know how important it is to manage expectations ...

Edmund

[michael]

Edmund,

Unless you know something to be a fact, such as which people at Leaf are working on which project, it seems to me to be irresponsible to make the suggestions that you have made.

Please either substantiate your statement or retract it. Leaf has gone to the trouble of sending two senior reps to respond to reader's concerns on this site. To abuse them with such gratutious accusations is not something which I appreciate seeing here.

Michael

[eronald]

Edmund,

Unless you know something to be a fact, such as which people at Leaf are working on which project, it seems to me to be irresponsible to make the suggestions that you have made.

Please either substantiate your statement or retract it. Leaf has gone to the trouble of sending two senior reps to respond to reader's concerns on this site. To abuse them with such gratutious accusations is not something which I appreciate seeing here.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85121\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I apologize, Michael - I hope that Leaf will fix the problems, soon.

Edmund

[James Russell]

I apologize, Michael - I hope that Leaf will fix the problems, soon.

Edmund
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Edmund,

Unless you use one of these backs, day in day out you really can't understand the value and consequently you won't find the issues and workarounds.

Just looking at a few frames from different sessions really tell you nothing.  What looks good with flash, may not work with continuous light, what works with tungsten looks different with HMI's, what is good at 400 iso and slightly overexposed could be full of noise at 200 iso and slightly underexposed.

I see this all the time, people make generalizations of a certain brand and then report, _________ is awful or __________ is better.  I've been guilty of the same and recently being able to test three backs from three manufacturers opened my eyes.

In fact I can give you compelling reasons why each back has an advantage and conversely why any of the three would be a better purchase.

Everyone wants a definative answer and in the internet age, one, two or three anomolies or even mispoken words can unfairly brand a product.

Still, the only thing that matters to me is what works for me.

My suggestion is before anyone make absolute remarks about a product is to try it and not in an hour or a day but really put it too work and find it's limits.

JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/[/url]

[khwanaon]

Edmund,

Unless you use one of these backs, day in day out you really can't understand the value and consequently you won't find the issues and workarounds.

Just looking at a few frames from different sessions really tell you nothing.  What looks good with flash, may not work with continuous light, what works with tungsten looks different with HMI's, what is good at 400 iso and slightly overexposed could be full of noise at 200 iso and slightly underexposed.

I see this all the time, people make generalizations of a certain brand and then report, _________ is awful or __________ is better.  I've been guilty of the same and recently being able to test three backs from three manufacturers opened my eyes.

In fact I can give you compelling reasons why each back has an advantage and conversely why any of the three would be a better purchase.

Everyone wants a definative answer and in the internet age, one, two or three anomolies or even mispoken words can unfairly brand a product.

Still, the only thing that matters to me is what works for me.

My suggestion is before anyone make absolute remarks about a product is to try it and not in an hour or a day but really put it too work and find it's limits.

JR
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85137\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Absolutely right, James!

I can only agree on this. By reading the posts here, one gets the feeling that only 2 brands are of interest to be used and giving good files (in any given situation).

There are 4 DB manufacturers (not 2 or 3), guys, and like James put it, test it carefully and take the one which matches your needs and expectations. Don't let yourself being influenced by what you read or hear, here or elsewhere.

Aon

[awofinden]

Absolutely right, James!

I can only agree on this. By reading the posts here, one gets the feeling that only 2 brands are of interest to be used and giving good files (in any given situation).

There are 4 DB manufacturers (not 2 or 3), guys, and like James put it, test it carefully and take the one which matches your needs and expectations. Don't let yourself being influenced by what you read or hear, here or elsewhere.

Aon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But we're not talking about different charecteristics, we're talking about a defective product. Leaf should offer a full refund to anyone with the centerfold issue or whatever there calling it these days.

[James Russell]

Absolutely right, James!

I can only agree on this. By reading the posts here, one gets the feeling that only 2 brands are of interest to be used and giving good files (in any given situation).

There are 4 DB manufacturers (not 2 or 3), guys, and like James put it, test it carefully and take the one which matches your needs and expectations. Don't let yourself being influenced by what you read or hear, here or elsewhere.

Aon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In my wolrd there are only three manufactuers because Sinar seems to have less presence in the U.S., though the people that use them love them.

I really must say again, try these camera in the way you work from setup to shoot, shoot to process, process to delivery.

All will work but some will do more for you than others in specific situations.

JR

[awofinden]

In my wolrd there are only three manufactuers because Sinar seems to have less presence in the U.S., though the people that use them love them.

I really must say again, try these camera in the way you work from setup to shoot, shoot to process, process to delivery.

All will work but some will do more for you than others in specific situations.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85149\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It would be a pretty rare situation that required the frame split in 2 with each side a different color though right?

[hubell]

Edmund,

Unless you use one of these backs, day in day out you really can't understand the value and consequently you won't find the issues and workarounds.


My suggestion is before anyone make absolute remarks about a product is to try it and not in an hour or a day but really put it too work and find it's limits.

JR
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85137\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course, you are are right, James. In theory. The actual "logistics" of an extended demo of each of the three systems is completely impractical, or at least for most of us. One major problem is the cost of actually demoing a $40k MFDB system. The rental cost is $600 per day. The dealers will let you come in and shoot products to your heart's content for free. Just don't leave the store. I shoot outdoors in natural light, so I am not interested in how these backs perform under strobes shooting models or boxes of Cheerios. How do I get a P45, an Aptus 75 and a Hassy 39 mp back mounted on a camera on the same day in the same light? Michael R. tried but could not pull it off with the P45 and Aptus 75.
The other major problem is learning three separate software packages. That's a very distasteful prospect. I hate learning new software. If only there was a single raw converter that worked great with all of the MFDBs.
I hate to even think of relying upon the opinions of people who may have an axe to grind, not know what they are talking about, are marginalizing a back based upon one particular "defect" that may be irrelevant to me, or are defending/touting a back because they own one and have identified with it on some primal level. Perhaps the only alternative is to accept that all of these backs are superb and pick one based upon the dealer who will give you the best support to work around the quirks that all of these backs have.

[awofinden]

Of course, you are are right, James. In theory. The actual "logistics" of an extended demo of each of the three systems is completely impractical, or at least for most of us. One major problem is the cost of actually demoing a $40k MFDB system. The rental cost is $600 per day. The dealers will let you come in and shoot products to your heart's content for free. Just don't leave the store. I shoot outdoors in natural light, so I am not interested in how these backs perform under strobes shooting models or boxes of Cheerios. How do I get a P45, an Aptus 75 and a Hassy 39 mp back mounted on a camera on the same day in the same light? Michael R. tried but could not pull it off with the P45 and Aptus 75.
The other major problem is learning three separate software packages. That's a very distasteful prospect. I hate learning new software. If only there was a single raw converter that worked great with all of the MFDBs.
I hate to even think of relying upon the opinions of people who may have an axe to grind, not know what they are talking about, are marginalizing a back based upon one particular "defect" that may be irrelevant to me, or are defending/touting a back because they own one and have identified with it on some primal level. Perhaps the only alternative is to accept that all of these backs are superb and pick one based upon the dealer who will give you the best support to work around the quirks that all of these backs have.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The demo backs don't have the issue though so you can test all you like and it won't show up.
 Is it that hard for leaf to test all there backs before there released, why are they shipping defective backs? It must be because a. they don't test them adequately before they leave the factory. B. they dont care or c. they test them, know theres a problem but hope you don't notice. Anyone come up with a different reason as I don't like the sound of any of the above.

[ericstaud]

But we're not talking about different charecteristics, we're talking about a defective product. Leaf should offer a full refund to anyone with the centerfold issue or whatever there calling it these days.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85148\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But we're not talking about different charecteristics, we're talking about a defective product. Leaf should offer a full refund to anyone with the centerfold issue or whatever there calling it these days.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85148\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The centerfold issue is specific to Non-Retrofocal lenses (large format lenses like the 24, 35, 47, and 60mm Schneider digitars).  Do you know how the other backs perform with these same lenses?  The eMotion, Leaf, Phase One, and Hasselblad MFDB's all suffer from a lack of uniformity using these lenses.  So you can return your Leaf back, but then what are you going to replace it with?  Anyone with a real interest in this issue would be asking how each manufacturer solves the issue through hardware or software, rather than demanding a refund.  

Leaf and Sinar resolve this issue by creating new RAW files using reference captures to remove the defects in the image.  It is a permanent and archival solution.  Sinar and Leaf users can then process their RAW files in any software package.  

Phase One offers a closed solution.  A similar reference capture is used to create a process setting for the output files.  The correction is only applied to the output.  The RAW file is never corrected.  I have several jobs shot with the P25.  If I want to process any of those images in 20 years from now, they will still have the color casts, and will require that I have a current licensed copy of C1 Pro to remove the casts from the Output files.  Great solution, just don't forget your checkbook!

The Phase one software solution is easier to use in the studio, especially when tethered.  If you are shooting higher volume, I think it is a good choice.  If you shoot landscape, architecture, fine art work, then you may have a body of RAW files which do not get processed right away.  Perhaps you will comb through your  RAW archive in 15 years to do a retrospective of your work, or to make an edit for a new book.  At that time, the Leaf and Sinar files can be opened with any software without the color casts or centerfold, because it was removed right after the shoot.  The Phase one files would require a software that can still remove the Lens cast, and that means C1 pro only for now.

I say all this to elaborate on what James Russel has said "I really must say again, try these camera in the way you work from setup to shoot, shoot to process, process to delivery.
All will work but some will do more for you than others in specific situations."  My "specific situation"  might make people rethink their opinion centerfold.

If you went out 6 months ago and bought an Aptus 75 for architecture work, you were told that shooting the white plexi and running a correction was not necessary.  This caused many people to choose A75's for architecture.  When the backs arrived, this turned out not to be true.  Therefore, the back was defective, and we started complaining.

At the same time, people were out buying P45's full well knowing that they would be shooting that white plexi card all the time. This was known up front, and therefore, is not a defect.

Now that I know the Plexi card is a fixture in my kit,  I do re-visit the choice to buy the A75 over the P45.  Switching to Phase One would be a difficult choice.  I would be locking myself into using the Phase software forever.  If Phase One went out of business in ten years,  I could still process my files in third party software, but how do I remove the lens casts?  In this case, the Phase One "defect" is more permanent than the Leaf's "defect".

I would love to know what MR thinks about this.  Is he still shooting with Non-retrofocal lenses and his P45, or is everything with the Hasselblad now?  There is a lot to learn about this topic for architecture, landscape, and viewcamera shooters.  Finding the right questions, as always, is more difficult than coming up with the right answers.

-Eric

[Dustbak]

Good thinking Eric!


Naturally you can start screaming for a refund but you still need a back (if that is the chosen route) so what is the point?

I have some issues with my back as well but hope this can be resolved so I can continue to use the thing to earn my money.

I do not particularly scream for a fault free device (coming from the high tech industry I know by now there is no such thing), I just want to have a manufacturer that works its ass of to help me fix the problems I have.

I do have this feeling with Leaf and that is why I still remain loyal towards Leaf backs even when I sometimes envy friends that handle Imacon or Phase backs (I have no friends with Sinar   ). Somehow the grass always seems greener on the other side. I have visited the other side several times in the past just to find out that it holds just as many turts as the side I originally came from.

I just wish Leaf would find another dealer for my location because the dealer over here is really really bad!

[pss]

here we have a perfect example why this forum is pretty much useless to anyone who actually owns a MF back....people making comments about problems they don't have and that they don't know anything about...."haha another leaf back has a problem, let's all bash leaf!" it is simply childish and such a waste of time...
this forum should be renamed: the almost MF digital forum..people on the verge
always the same questions: which back should i buy? and the answers from the people who actually own backs are always the same...go and test them! and yes they are better! we do people like edmund keep posting on issues that don concern them? if this forum was the only good info on DMF, leaf must be worried, it seems like their backs are faulty and every new product comes out too early...i have owned a leaf back, never had any problems at all...i prefer phase and that workflow...it seems like some people here are happy if there are problems, because they haven't been able to afford the systems they keep reading and writing about, and when these systems have problems...it actually makes them feel better...it is sad...
there is no discussion here about photos, techniques or even photography! it is all leaf v phase v the rest...how faschist hasselblad has become...how this back has this problem (with most of the posts coming from people who don't own the prduct!!!)......at the same time people complain about products being released too early, it is the same people who lust for every rumor and every press release....
edumnd...do another poll...who actually owns a back in here, i can't come here for questions and i am sick of writing the same answers to the same questions, from people on the fence....
i just ordered a new back...the rep and dealers bent over backwards to get the product in my hands...and i am talking about 2 great deals from 2 different companies...anyone out there SERIOUSLY looking for a back should not have a problem handling one and getting a good price....

[awofinden]

Good thinking Eric!
Naturally you can start screaming for a refund but you still need a back (if that is the chosen route) so what is the point?

I have some issues with my back as well but hope this can be resolved so I can continue to use the thing to earn my money.

I do not particularly scream for a fault free device (coming from the high tech industry I know by now there is no such thing), I just want to have a manufacturer that works its ass of to help me fix the problems I have.

I do have this feeling with Leaf and that is why I still remain loyal towards Leaf backs even when I sometimes envy friends that handle Imacon or Phase backs (I have no friends with Sinar   ). Somehow the grass always seems greener on the other side. I have visited the other side several times in the past just to find out that it holds just as many turts as the side I originally came from.

I just wish Leaf would find another dealer for my location because the dealer over here is really really bad!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85188\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I guess it's a  virtue of you guys to put up with this,  if I had spent 30 grand on a product which  didn't work as advertised I'd be more than a little upset. Each to there own I guess. I do feel for the guy that tested the thing and when  he recieved his back it was different to the one he demo'd (not in a good way) and it's happened 3 times over! Does it not seem unfair to you?

[Dustbak]

Fortunately it was a whole lot less than 30K but still a sizeable amount of money. It is not just that there are only faulty devices but the people that do find a fault just scream a lot louder than the ones that don't (they are working with it and don't have time to post here  ).

I would have preferred to not have issues however I have owned several backs now and only this time I have an issue of which I currently do not know whether it is severe or not.

On the other hand when you do spend this amount of money you tend to become an even bigger pixel peeper and even more critical towards the image quality you get out of the thing. (by now I have my workflow setup and mastered which is easy when you have only worked with 1 brand so image quality is the only thing I tend to look at).

For me the backs get better every time I put more money into them (read buy newer ones). The first I had to use color filters and the thing was heavily tethered, etc.., The second was only just tethered, The third I could shoot untethered with a firewire disk on a cable in my pocket (left the Ipaq at home), The fourth is everything I wished for besides some issues which Leaf has promised to look into (I just hope they start fairly soon with that).

What do I get in return? Real sharpness instead of ugly PS sharpness from toy D-SLR's, way better colors, files that can handle pretty extreme curve & levels manipulation. An interchangeable back for multiple systems (which actually make the systems fairly cheap). I probably can come up with some more points when I really think about it but the question could also be;

Why would we spend so much money on these things knowing about all these issues? The rewards just might weigh up to the chance of actually running into a problem.

[josayeruk]

this forum should be renamed: the almost MF digital forum..people on the verge
always the same questions: which back should i buy? and the answers from the people who actually own backs are always the same...go and test them!

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Here here Paul!!

You nailed it with that post...

For users like us there is nothing to read!!  And you're advice is very obvious - wanna back?  Go and test it... QED really.

Please can we not have more threads about photography... Colour management.. I dunno.. anything except Leaf / Phase / Hasselblad bashing and ooooo what back shall I (not) buy.

Please?

Jo x

PS  Nice website BTW Paul.  A good use of Flash that doesn't take an age to load.

[KristerH]

Hi all.

For those of you who are sitting on the fence and looking into the DB world this must be very confusing. The problem is that if you are a optimizer you will never be happy and able to enjoy life. Ther is no such thing as the perfect "use it for everything" camera, nor is there a perfect digital back.( No perfect woman either)  I have used my Aptus 75 now for two months and every time I open this files back at the studio I am amazed. What a quality straight out from the back. It is a joy to be a photographer again. My back have problems with a centerline as well but this only show up in very special lighting conditions. 99% of the pictures are just breathtaking for an old Canon shooter.

I have talked with Leaf people on many occasions and are 100% convinced that they will put all their energy into solving this. They are a small company and cant afford non satisfied customers. They care. And while they are sitting in meetings trying to figure this out I will keep on producing fantastic looking pictures with my Leaf.

Listen to James. Work with what you have, work it hard and you will never go wrong. Stop optimizing.

Krister Halvars

[ericstaud]

I guess it's a  virtue of you guys to put up with this,  if I had spent 30 grand on a product which  didn't work as advertised I'd be more than a little upset. Each to there own I guess. I do feel for the guy that tested the thing and when  he recieved his back it was different to the one he demo'd (not in a good way) and it's happened 3 times over! Does it not seem unfair to you?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85192\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Those of us dealing with this are very upset.  We have all lost sleep over it.  And yes, it does seem unfair.  We bought a back which was said to not have an issue with non-uniformity.  We have now learned that ALL 33 and 39mp back have non-uniformity with the non-retrofocal lenses.

If we knew then what we know now, would we have chosen to stay with film?  Maybe.  Leaf is telling it's customers shooting with these lenses that they are trying to produce backs which are free of this non-uniformity.  Has anyone with Phase, Hassy, or Sinar backs been told this by those companies?  If Leaf totally fails to cure this non-uniformity, or gives it up entirely, then the Leaf backs will be just the same as the other makers backs in respect to this issue rather than being better.

"I guess it's a  virtue of you guys to put up with this"

My nikon lenses all have barrel and pincushion distortion, and Chromatic abberation.  The camera has ugly noise at High ISO, and noise at long exposures.  It also does a terrible job of handling blown highlights compared to the MFDB's.  I put up with it.  The 1Ds II I used had better noise, but worse lenses.  I put up with it.  I could characterize all these as defects and ask for my money back.  The people who are telling me to demand a refund from Leaf would Laugh at me for demanding a refund from Nikon or Canon.