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Author Topic: I am so disappointed.  (Read 4978 times)

rothberg

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I am so disappointed.
« on: November 11, 2006, 04:09:35 pm »

Oh My!

I am so disappointed.  I am disappointed that a company that I respect who heretofore built the best cameras and lenses that money can buy, would knowingly release a faulty product.  Now I find out that one of the only clear voices, a man who’s opinion I trust, and who has heretofore prided himself on telling it like it is, is just another flack bowing to the wishes of a company that would knowingly deceive me.

I have waited for the M8 for years. I still believe that in the end Leica will make it right (even if I have to pay for a fix to a camera so that it will make black things black).  I just can not believe that everybody lies.

I am so disappointed.
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MrIconoclast

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I am so disappointed.
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2006, 04:34:05 pm »

I had a vision the other night.  My Guardian Angle appeared before me and said "MrPaul, if you wish I will undo ALL of the bad things that have happened to you when you followed what we now know is erroneous advice given by Mr. Reichmann.   But, I must also undo all of the good decisions you made following his advice."   I paused for a very brief moment and told him "Thanks, but no thanks."
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Pete JF

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I am so disappointed.
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2006, 04:43:22 pm »

Flack?

Don't you guys with the "disappointment" understand that there is a  balance that has to be found between the companies that drive the larger economies, and the those that review the goods that those companies produce? Im not happy with the greater state of how all these digital products are released. The entire industry is racked with hype and statements that are WAY open to interpretation and huge margins of error as to their validity.

Im one to bitch..believe me, im sick of the whole damn thing. However, was it necessary for you, Rothberg, to start dishing the labels, as if Mike is acting as a mouthpice for all of these companies? what about Epson and Canon? he made it very clear after raving about the x800 series that the Canon was much better, in his opinion.

If Mike was to start tossing out reviews that slammed products in an outright way he would probably not have many products in his hands to review in advance of their release dates. I've said it before, there is a delicate politic here and it must be considered when reading any of these reviews. Mikey also has to find the proper reference point for the product before he decides whether or not to say it's good, great or awful. That reference has to come from who the product is intended for and what the company is planning to do to it before it hits the marketplace plus a host of other variables that most don't have a clue about

Sometimes, that reference is poorly defined, misidentified, or, even downright wrong, many times it's spot on.

We, as the consumers, have to be sharp enough to read between the lines, identify what is important to us. It's easy to sit here and rip on the owner of the site when you have no real feel for the reality of being a "reviewer". Rothberg, don't be so disappointed, instead, wipe your tears away and take a walk...fly a kite.

I had a funny feeling about this Leica m8 from the beginning. Everything seemed to good to be true for a first offer. I find myself having that exact same feeling about almost every product that I have gone out  and bought after reading some type of glowing review, especially in the area of digital printing.

I do feel that if the reviewers were a bit more cut and dried stubborn about being censored or, asked to "wait", that we would get better products. Once they (these companies) learn that they have sway with the media. They begin to find ways to work that for themselves...this m8 might or might not be a good example of that. whatever, I feel that it's a bit strong to label the guy as a "flack".
« Last Edit: November 11, 2006, 05:18:45 pm by Pete JF »
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BernardLanguillier

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I am so disappointed.
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2006, 04:53:49 pm »

Quote
Oh My!

I am so disappointed.  I am disappointed that a company that I respect who heretofore built the best cameras and lenses that money can buy, would knowingly release a faulty product.  Now I find out that one of the only clear voices, a man who’s opinion I trust, and who has heretofore prided himself on telling it like it is, is just another flack bowing to the wishes of a company that would knowingly deceive me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84667\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

99% of Leica M8 users would IMHO start by converting their files to B&W... is it really such a big deal?

Cheers,
Bernard

Henrik Paul

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I am so disappointed.
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2006, 04:55:48 pm »

I just can't keep my mouth shut. For the note, I'm no Leica fanboy (although I recognize their superior quality), so I might not be invited to this party, but I don't care.

I've been watching from the sideskirts this farce of a flamewar. Yes, the flamewar is a farce. Huge overreactions left and right. Ok, so the camera has banding issues, or a weak ir-filter. So what? If you've bought a camera, express your discontent to Leica, and the next time wait for the problems to surface (say, a month?). If you've cancelled your order, you have lost nothing, be happy. If you're just raving for the sake of raving, shut up.

I see nothing wrong with Michael's actions. He did Leica a favor, which seemed to backfire in unporpotional amounts, and I'm sure that he's just as angry at Leica as you are, if not more. To tell you the truth, Leica's actions aren't all that unheard of, either. Perhaps unexpected from Leica, but, as said, the camera has been waited for forever. They wanted the product out. All companies do that. That's why firmware updates exist nowadays. You shelled out a car's worth of money for a camera, why not buy an ir-filter to make the bad things go away.

Stop whining, please. It's ridiculous.
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soslund

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I am so disappointed.
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2006, 06:01:46 pm »

Disappointed, yes.  Devestated, no.  I currently own an M7--guess I'll wait to put it up for sale on ebay until the dust settles.  I will definately be purchasing an M8 in the future once the current model is debugged.

I was also one of the unlucky ones to have purchased a Nikon D200 (my first serious trek into digital photography) which showed banding.  The solution?  Sent it in to Nikon, and within a week I had a perfectly functioning camera.  

It's just a camera, folks.  There are LOTS of things more important in life.  Trust me.....I'm a doctor (really).

Scott
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JJP

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I am so disappointed.
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2006, 06:18:35 pm »

Quote
I am so disappointed. I am disappointed that a company that I respect who heretofore built the best cameras and lenses that money can buy,
Don't be disappointed....that's the nature of the beast.  Other greats have fallen by the wayside.  Contax for one.  Others are struggling to stay afloat like Mamiya.  Others are joining forces.   Let's face it, having digital success is a hard nut to crack.  Nikon and Canon seem to have it but they spent years with Kodak before going solo and it seems that Kodak got the $h!t End of the $t!ck following those years.
Assuming Leica have a real winner, one to two years down the road the survival game starts all over again.  Yep, even for Leica.
jj
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JJ

Stephen Best

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I am so disappointed.
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2006, 06:39:04 pm »

Quote
99% of Leica M8 users would IMHO start by converting their files to B&W... is it really such a big deal?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84671\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe 99% of the images worth looking at, but not what typical users want to use this camera for ... judging by the number of colour images on the 'net of their new Lexus, fire hydrants etc. Though wouldn't the IR issue also affect tonal values of some blacks? If nothing else, this whole M8 issue has highlighted the trade-offs that camera makers have to make and how much of a challenge digital really is.

On the nature of reviews (both here and elsewhere) I generally find these too superficial and/or opinionated but maybe helpful in highlighting issues that I wouldn't have thought about otherwise. The trend nowadays seems to be to read the reviews then go surf the 'net for the best price. People have nobody to blame but themselves if they end up with a dud or, more likely, something unsuited to their particular requirements. Also, given the way that most reviewers lurch from one product to the next, implicit in this is the observation that a lot of raved about products don't have many enduring qualities.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2006, 07:54:40 pm by Stephen Best »
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pobrien3

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I am so disappointed.
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2006, 08:45:14 pm »

I normally stay out of these types of thread and I'm not a Leica owner either, but I have two observations to make:

1) If you're shelling out that amount of cash for any piece of equipment, do your own validation - don't buy it because someone told you to.  Caveat emptor.

2) I thought Michael's response was honest and mature - he has my respect.

Peter
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David Anderson

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I am so disappointed.
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2006, 12:26:42 am »

Lots of these products seem to have bugs in the first run, I think the real bad guy here is Leica for putting the M8 out without noticing or without caring, the fact that they then asked Luminous Landscape to cover them is even more devious.

Maybe Leicas new owners are not aware of the brands reputation for quality ?

If they can't get it right from the first sale they should at least have the clackers to own up to their mistakes in front of their loyal customers right away, if Micheal is willing what are they waiting for ?
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ErikKaffehr

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I am so disappointed.
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2006, 03:27:00 am »

I have some issues with Leica's response.

1) They talk about reducing astigmatism, and they also claim that purple fringing is caused by astigmatism. As far as I know astigmatism is a problem in lenses, meaning that tagential and sagittal structures are not focused in the same plane. I simply cannot se how that astigmatism would cause purple fringing. Nor can I see how a thicker IR-filter would cause astigmatism.

2) The exclusion of the antialiasing filter combined with relatively large pixel size and high resolution optics sounds like a great recipe for aliasing problems. (Color moiré patterns).

3) The statement that: "The IR/UV filter is only suitable for use with digital M cameras and 6-bit coded lenses.", is very odd. How would the filter know that the optic 6-bit coded? Will it transmit IR if mounted on a non coded lens?

4) "The use of the additional IR filter in front of the optical system has big advantages, as the filter does not create reflections inside the optical system. This enables the reproduction of the finest tonal values even in shadows."

Thickness does not reflect, surface does. Leica already has a IR filter in the camera, although weak.

To me, much of the information given by Leica is marketing blurb and not science.

I can see good reasons for some of the design decisions Leica made. The M-line has some advantages on SLR design. There is no need for mirror, so the distance between sensor and the back of the lens can be small, so no retrofocus design is needed on wide-angles. The disadvantage is that light trough the lens will hit the sensor/microlens/IR-filter package at much more oblique angle. They try to reduce the problem by using thin IR-filter, and special microlenses with different characteristics across the sensor.

Best regards

Erik


Quote
Oh My!

I am so disappointed.  I am disappointed that a company that I respect who heretofore built the best cameras and lenses that money can buy, would knowingly release a faulty product.  Now I find out that one of the only clear voices, a man who’s opinion I trust, and who has heretofore prided himself on telling it like it is, is just another flack bowing to the wishes of a company that would knowingly deceive me.

I have waited for the M8 for years. I still believe that in the end Leica will make it right (even if I have to pay for a fix to a camera so that it will make black things black).  I just can not believe that everybody lies.

I am so disappointed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84667\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Erik Kaffehr
 
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