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Author Topic: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints  (Read 2508 times)

StuartR

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Hello all. I have a quite specific question that I was hoping someone might be able to help with. I am doing an exhibition of very large, very delicate prints on Awagami Murakumo Kozo Select paper. The paper itself is only 42gsm, but it takes ink very well despite its size. Still, in dark areas the ink density is enough to cause ripples in the prints. The prints I am making are 170x220cm, printed across two rolls. They are wall sized...I have made one already and it looks great, but in the shadow areas there are some ripples that are visible, particularly when viewed on an angle. I did not experience this issue in my "small" test of roughly 85x65cm. If the prints were small, I would just put them in a heat press, but these are obviously way too large for that. I also did an experiment trying to iron them with a clothes iron and no steam (with a interleaving sheet between), but that did not really do anything and I did not want to push the heat too far on my glass table. I have tried reducing the color density to -30%, but it does not seem to make a huge difference, at least on the plain paper test. I have been trying not to waste the Awagami paper, as it is expensive and I can only get three prints on a roll. Does anyone have any other thoughts? I know this kind of work is somewhat Sisyphysian, but it is my MFA graduation show, and the huge, immersiveness of the large prints and ethereal qualities of the paper match my thesis topic and book very well, so I am reluctant to give up.

The smaller print was rolled up for transport for a show in Berlin, so it sat rolled up for at least a few days...I wonder if that helped remove the ripples. I read of an instance where someone rolled prints between two glassine sheets immediately after printing to help remove this sort of issue. I am willing to entertain suggestions. It is not such a big deal for the first image, but one or two of the others have large areas of black ink, where it will be much more noticeable.
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deanwork

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2018, 10:08:37 am »

I’ve been through this, warped  prints too big for a dry mount press.

You need to get the wetness out of them. The fastest way is using a hair dryer to do it. I was shocked when I was able to do that with ease. It will even make curled Baryta paper flatten out instantly.

If that doesn’t work try making a curve adjustment layer and reducing the black shadow max black point a tad.

Also turn up the air conditioning in your studio. If the paper and drying area is overly humid that’s going to hurt you.

If that doesn’t work find a frame shop with a big dry mount press. We have one in Atlanta.

But I do believe the hair dryer will solve it.






Hello all. I have a quite specific question that I was hoping someone might be able to help with. I am doing an exhibition of very large, very delicate prints on Awagami Murakumo Kozo Select paper. The paper itself is only 42gsm, but it takes ink very well despite its size. Still, in dark areas the ink density is enough to cause ripples in the prints. The prints I am making are 170x220cm, printed across two rolls. They are wall sized...I have made one already and it looks great, but in the shadow areas there are some ripples that are visible, particularly when viewed on an angle. I did not experience this issue in my "small" test of roughly 85x65cm. If the prints were small, I would just put them in a heat press, but these are obviously way too large for that. I also did an experiment trying to iron them with a clothes iron and no steam (with a interleaving sheet between), but that did not really do anything and I did not want to push the heat too far on my glass table. I have tried reducing the color density to -30%, but it does not seem to make a huge difference, at least on the plain paper test. I have been trying not to waste the Awagami paper, as it is expensive and I can only get three prints on a roll. Does anyone have any other thoughts? I know this kind of work is somewhat Sisyphysian, but it is my MFA graduation show, and the huge, immersiveness of the large prints and ethereal qualities of the paper match my thesis topic and book very well, so I am reluctant to give up.

The smaller print was rolled up for transport for a show in Berlin, so it sat rolled up for at least a few days...I wonder if that helped remove the ripples. I read of an instance where someone rolled prints between two glassine sheets immediately after printing to help remove this sort of issue. I am willing to entertain suggestions. It is not such a big deal for the first image, but one or two of the others have large areas of black ink, where it will be much more noticeable.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 10:13:56 am by deanwork »
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StuartR

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2018, 10:19:28 am »

Thanks for the help. I will give the hair dryer a go...that is easy enough! As for the studio, I am in Iceland, so air conditioning is not an issue. Today is one of the nicest days of the year so far and it is still 55 degrees out.
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deanwork

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2018, 03:10:03 pm »

Sitting down here in Georgia, Iceland was the last thing I was contemplating.

The air conditioner was for removing humidity, but sounds like you are probably a dry climate, otherwise a dehumidifier could work.

It does sound like you may still be laying down too much ink in the shadows for this thin of media. If you don’t have a rip and have gone as far as you can in the printer driver ( Epson printers in printer manage color mode will allow ink density options) all you can do is reduce  k contrast in a curve adjustment.  If you are doing black and white by all means download qtr and use that. Then you can make a decent linearization for that specific media. HP and Canon have their own workflows.


Thanks for the help. I will give the hair dryer a go...that is easy enough! As for the studio, I am in Iceland, so air conditioning is not an issue. Today is one of the nicest days of the year so far and it is still 55 degrees out.
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StuartR

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2018, 04:41:04 pm »

Thanks. I tried the hair dryer and it did not work...the print is dry, so retained moisture is not the issue. I am using an Epson P9000. I have not used QTR for it yet...I had it for the 9900, but had some troubles with it for the P9000, so I have not gotten to trying. I am not sure I have time to learn it and do the linearizations before I need to finish, so I think I will need to either accept the results or find another way...
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deanwork

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2018, 06:55:35 pm »


Wondering if Epson has a meadia setting for Japanese washi papers. My Canon actually has one that I build my profiles on and even with the very thin media it never over inks. The Z hP printers has a very flexible slider that works with various media settings  for reducing ink limits that allow you to create the custom setting that can be saved as a preset. I’ve never done this with any of my Epsons but I thought the ABW work flow allowed you to do that. Maybe you’ve reduced it as far as you can.

It would be trial and error figuring that out and you would have to use a lot of good paper. Problem is you don’t see it on small sheets like you do with larger tests. Plain paper won’t work.



Thanks. I tried the hair dryer and it did not work...the print is dry, so retained moisture is not the issue. I am using an Epson P9000. I have not used QTR for it yet...I had it for the 9900, but had some troubles with it for the P9000, so I have not gotten to trying. I am not sure I have time to learn it and do the linearizations before I need to finish, so I think I will need to either accept the results or find another way...
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enduser

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2018, 09:21:14 pm »

We've had some success with similar problems but on thicker papers, using a flat iron , the hand iron like you iron a shirt with. Start warm and increase the heat gradually. Test on a small trial print first perhaps. Amazing the wrinkles we've got rid of that way.
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mistymoon

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 01:56:11 am »

I just had a similar problem with Moab Moenkopi Unryu paper, which is a thin Japanese mulberry paper. I printed it from a roll on an Epson P5000 and no matter what I did, I still had wrinkles in areas of heavy ink deposit. I tried using a setting to reduce the amount of ink (-20) and to increase the drying time between head passes. These didn't help much. What I ended up doing is using a clothes iron on a moderate heat setting, and using a sheet of paper between the iron and the print, which took out most of the wrinkles. Then I was able to mount the prints using Gudy O. Good luck!
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StuartR

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2018, 07:54:48 am »

Thanks guys. I tried the iron the other day on a test strip, but it did not help so much. I did not use any moisture though...did you all use steam? I also did it on my glass table, which made me a bit leery...not sure how the tempered glass would react, so I did not want to take it too far. Perhaps I just need to give it a bit more heat and time.
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deanwork

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2018, 08:19:27 am »

I have gotten warped hand made Indian hemp paper flattened by using the iron on moderate then hotter heat, no steam. I think steam would be dangerous in regard to drips. Ruined silk that way.

I always did it on a large sheet of foamcor or better yet white matte board or even chip board. I can’t see how doing  it on glass would work. Matte board is much better because eventually the foamcor will warp with too much heat.





Thanks guys. I tried the iron the other day on a test strip, but it did not help so much. I did not use any moisture though...did you all use steam? I also did it on my glass table, which made me a bit leery...not sure how the tempered glass would react, so I did not want to take it too far. Perhaps I just need to give it a bit more heat and time.
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aaronchan

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2018, 11:02:17 am »

I’m not sure about your paper
But in the China, when we deal with traditional ink art on rice paper, we first spray some water on it, has to be small molecule, like mist, then either iron it or hair dry it. Print a small full black small print and try it cuz I have no idea if your paper/ink is water proof tho.

Aaron


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deanwork

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2018, 08:34:59 pm »


Hi Aaron. Hope you are well.

Yes you can spray the Awagami ( kozo at least ) with distilled water and there is no problem.

I was doing this with the great late Epson kozo thin for an exhibition where I stretched it on wood frames  with pva glue and ran out of media so I switched over to the Awagami for the last two prints and wetting it the same way worked perfectly. Good idea.

John


I’m not sure about your paper
But in the China, when we deal with traditional ink art on rice paper, we first spray some water on it, has to be small molecule, like mist, then either iron it or hair dry it. Print a small full black small print and try it cuz I have no idea if your paper/ink is water proof tho.

Aaron


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framah

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Re: Workarounds for rippling in thin Awagami papers in very large prints
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2018, 01:17:03 pm »

Sounds like misting the paper is expanding (or relaxing) the paper fibers enough so they are all the same and then when you put the ink on, it has already been expanded so it won't expand in the heavy ink area.

Makes sense to me, at least. :o
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