Brexit - shifting sands ?

[Rob C]

Time to stop blaming the media for everything, and concentrating again on what the guy actually said, on worldwide television. Base conclusions on that, not on your unlimited capability of looking the other way, or to apologise in some other manner for what is, sadly, the reality of what's going down in this world.

There are no ifs and buts, and your other conflated comparisons are totally spurious, as I hope you really, privately already know.

As mentioned before, Britain has no open forum where Brexit could have been discussed and evaluated clinically. All it has is print/tv media, much foreign-owned with all that that implies, and the barrages of tweets and assorted "like" spaces that have replaced conversation with sign language in order to accommodate the needs of the inarticulate.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Time to stop blaming the media for everything, and concentrating again on what the guy actually said, on worldwide television. Base conclusions on that, not on your unlimited capability of looking the other way, or to apologise in some other manner for what is, sadly, the reality of what's going down in this world.

Rob hit the ball right out of the park (or the soccer ball right in the goal) with this statement.  The problem with President Trump is that he has put so much into the public record that he really appears not to know too much other than to give a good campaign rally speech.  People complain about all the fact checking that is going on right now and accusing the media of bias.  Isn't one of the principal jobs of the media and its readers to detect what is true?  President Trump is my president though I did not vote for him and we will see how things play out with the Mueller investigation and the upcoming elections.  Maybe he completes his term in office and maybe not but my simple expectation is for him to be consistent and either lie all the time or tell the truth all the time.  Right now we just have a hodgepodge of truths, misstatements and out right falsehoods.  this is inappropriate behavior of our President and going back to Eisenhower, I have never seen a President who so callously plays fast and loose with the facts.  It's up to him to render the fact checker's job useless.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... Yesterday's results with Mr Putin, the remarks about the respective security services, comes pretty close to treason, in my book.

There is a difference what some people might think is treason, or even what late-night comedians find funny ("beyond treasonable doubt" - funny indeed), and what the legal reality is.

In my book, expressing an opinion, as Trump did, even as ever so clumsily and by confusing a double negative, is just that, an opinion, not a treason.

Even the alleged collusion, still unproven in the second year of investigation, would not be a treasonous event. Don't believe me? Here is what a Democrat, and a constitutional scholar, Alan Dershowitz has to say on the issue (not all agree with him, of course, but his opinion does carry a certain weight):

https://www.newsweek.com/alan-dershowitz-donald-trump-impeachment-1012672

Notable excerpts (bold mine):

If there were proof of such collusion—and to date I have seen none—that would be a serious political sin. An American should not collude with a foreign power, especially a hostile foreign power, in an effort to enhance his candidacy. But there is a dispositive difference between a political sin and a high crime and misdemeanor. There is no such crime of collusion in the context of an election. Collusion may entail other crimes, such as election law violations or accessory to crimes such as hacking. But collusion itself is simply not a crime.

Consider the most extreme hypothetical: Assume, absurdly, that candidate Trump called Vladimir Putin and said the following: “Hey, Vlad. Do I have a deal for you? I want to be elected president, and you want to get rid of the Magnitsky sanctions, which I don’t like anyway. You should help me get elected by giving me dirt you already have on Hillary Clinton because, if I’m elected, there’s a better chance to get rid of the sanctions, which I disapprove of.”

Of course, no such conversation occurred, and no such deal was made. But if it had been, one can search the federal criminal statutes for a crime that would cover this political sin. Politicians often seek contributions and support from individuals who expect to benefit from the election of their candidate. There are, of course, limitations on what a foreign government can contribute to a campaign, but these limitations are vague and subject to constitutional scrutiny, ­especially in the context of information rather than cash.

The article contains more interesting examples and comments, and I urge you to read it.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Brexit isn't right because it was never debated; it was simply lied about...

Rob, I understand your personal pain caused by the Brexit. Still...

Brexit was debated ad nauseam. Except that one side lost the debate. Lies? But of course, what else is new under the sun and in politics? If one side lied, the appropriate response is either to expose it clearly as lies, or provide a better counter-lie. That is politics, that is democracy, for better or worse. People listen to both sides and ultimately decide which lie or truth to believe. Not to mention their own beliefs, correct or misguided as it might be, but theirs nevertheless.

Complaining that the other side lied better is just sour grapes.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Even the alleged collusion, still unproven in the second year of investigation, would not be a treasonous event. Don't believe me? Here is what a Democrat, and a constitutional scholar, Alan Dershowitz has to say on the issue (not all agree with him, of course, but his opinion does carry a certain weight):

https://www.newsweek.com/alan-dershowitz-donald-trump-impeachment-1012672

Notable excerpts (bold mine):

The article contains more interesting examples and comments, and I urge you to read it.

I've read Dershowitz and at this point agree with him.  The only bizarre statement that then Candidate Trump made was urging Russia to get the undiscovered Clinton emails and as we have now found out some of the hacking activities began the next day.  This is likely coincidence.  I think that some of Trump's advisors and his son, Donald, Jr., are the ones that are most likely in legal peril as a result of the investigations. 

[Alan Klein]

Time to stop blaming the media for everything, and concentrating again on what the guy actually said, on worldwide television. Base conclusions on that, not on your unlimited capability of looking the other way, or to apologise in some other manner for what is, sadly, the reality of what's going down in this world.

There are no ifs and buts, and your other conflated comparisons are totally spurious, as I hope you really, privately already know.

As mentioned before, Britain has no open forum where Brexit could have been discussed and evaluated clinically. All it has is print/tv media, much foreign-owned with all that that implies, and the barrages of tweets and assorted "like" spaces that have replaced conversation with sign language in order to accommodate the needs of the inarticulate.

You know the founders of our Republic, when they wrote the US Constitution, were equally concerned about the ignorance and power of the dumb public.  So they set it up with electors and that you had to own property to vote.  Men only could vote.  Who needed emotional women?  (Boy am I in trouble now.)

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I've read Dershowitz and at this point agree with him.  The only bizarre statement that then Candidate Trump made was urging Russia to get the undiscovered Clinton emails and as we have now found out some of the hacking activities began the next day.  This is likely coincidence...

See? We CAN agree... sometimes.

[Alan Goldhammer]

See? We CAN agree... sometimes.

You have no idea how immense my anger is at Clinton and the Democratic Party apparatchiks who ended up selecting her.  I had to hold my nose very hard on election day, though in Maryland I could have voted for anyone and it would not have mattered.   

[Alan Klein]

Rob hit the ball right out of the park (or the soccer ball right in the goal) with this statement.  The problem with President Trump is that he has put so much into the public record that he really appears not to know too much other than to give a good campaign rally speech.  People complain about all the fact checking that is going on right now and accusing the media of bias.  Isn't one of the principal jobs of the media and its readers to detect what is true?  President Trump is my president though I did not vote for him and we will see how things play out with the Mueller investigation and the upcoming elections.  Maybe he completes his term in office and maybe not but my simple expectation is for him to be consistent and either lie all the time or tell the truth all the time.  Right now we just have a hodgepodge of truths, misstatements and out right falsehoods.  this is inappropriate behavior of our President and going back to Eisenhower, I have never seen a President who so callously plays fast and loose with the facts.  It's up to him to render the fact checker's job useless.

It's true that Trump the ultimate marketeer plays fast and loose with the truth to make his point and get his way.  But he's kept faith with his supporters. Unlike many politicians who say one thing and do another, he's followed through on his campaign promises to them as best he could. 

He said before the election that he wanted a reset with Putin and Russia.  So that's what he's doing. If it wasn't for the phony collusion charges, he would have been meeting with Putin last year and moving our relationship along a lot earlier.  Sure the Russians should not have hacked the DNC servers.  Hopefully, the Russians will stop messing around in the upcoming midterms in November.   I hope Trump told him so in private.  But we have more important fish to fry with the Russians -Syria, Ukraine, Iran, nukes, NK, China, etc.   We have to get on with it but domestic politics has been preventing Trump from doing it.  We're only hurting ourselves.

[Alan Klein]

I've read Dershowitz and at this point agree with him.  The only bizarre statement that then Candidate Trump made was urging Russia to get the undiscovered Clinton emails and as we have now found out some of the hacking activities began the next day.  This is likely coincidence.  I think that some of Trump's advisors and his son, Donald, Jr., are the ones that are most likely in legal peril as a result of the investigations. 

It wasn't a bizarre statement.  I would have said the same thing.  Remember the original email release showed that the Democrat National Committee and Hillary secretly conspired against her competitor Senator Sanders, another Democrat. That was really publicly embarrassing for the DNC and Clinton.  So naturally, Trump the paramount competitor,  would say something like, let's get all the dirt out, Russians.  But wishing for something and hoping for it, especially publically,  is not a conspiracy when you have no direct relationship with the other party.  Frankly, I wish the Russians were able to get it out.  Then we may have known what conniving she did with her Clinton Initiative  slush fund.

[Alan Klein]

You have no idea how immense my anger is at Clinton and the Democratic Party apparatchiks who ended up selecting her.  I had to hold my nose very hard on election day, though in Maryland I could have voted for anyone and it would not have mattered.   

Hillary learned her lesson in 2008 when she lost the nomination to newcomer Obama.  He collected the apparatchiks, the super delegates, before she could and won the nomination. In 2016, she wasn't going to make that mistake again.  Then to sow up the  npmination deal, she got her buddy, Florida Congresswoman and DNC Chairperson Debbie Wasserman Schultz, to get her the DNC money and other support and to marginalize Sanders.   It appears the Democrat Party was not so democratic. That's what Putin was alluding to at the news conference.  It must have reminded him of being home.   

[Robert Roaldi]

It's true that Trump the ultimate marketeer plays fast and loose with the truth to make his point and get his way.  But he's kept faith with his supporters. Unlike many politicians who say one thing and do another, he's followed through on his campaign promises to them as best he could. 

He said before the election that he wanted a reset with Putin and Russia.  So that's what he's doing. If it wasn't for the phony collusion charges, he would have been meeting with Putin last year and moving our relationship along a lot earlier.  Sure the Russians should not have hacked the DNC servers.  Hopefully, the Russians will stop messing around in the upcoming midterms in November.   I hope Trump told him so in private.  But we have more important fish to fry with the Russians -Syria, Ukraine, Iran, nukes, NK, China, etc.   We have to get on with it but domestic politics has been preventing Trump from doing it.  We're only hurting ourselves.

Alan, which Trump do you agree with? The one who said all those things at the Putin press conference, or the one who backtracked later.

[Alan Klein]

Alan, which Trump do you agree with? The one who said all those things at the Putin press conference, or the one who backtracked later.

I think backing up the indictment of the Russians is better.  Now let's get on with a relationship with Putin.   


We're going to need them to assure the NK that their security is secure and to remove the NK nukes if we can settle with Kim.  We need Russian divisions on the China Russia border to help keep China in check in the future.  We need to reduce the number of nukes in our countries.  We need to lower the tension on the European Russian border due to NATO activities.  We need to let the Russians know we're not their enemy so they don't feel it necessary to expand into eastern Europe to protect their borders. 


These things should have been discussed a year ago.  Now we have to get on with it.

[Alan Goldhammer]

It's true that Trump the ultimate marketeer plays fast and loose with the truth to make his point and get his way.  But he's kept faith with his supporters. Unlike many politicians who say one thing and do another, he's followed through on his campaign promises to them as best he could. 

How many coal miners has he put back to work?  How many factories has he reopened?  I don't think he has managed to do much of anything other than to sign the tax reform bill and try to eliminate some environmental regulations (the only ones that they have undone were the easy ones that were promulgated by Obama late in the second term; the rest of the work they are doing has to go through notice and comment rulemaking and probably litigation).  Not an especially great track record IMO.

[Alan Klein]

How many coal miners has he put back to work?  How many factories has he reopened?  I don't think he has managed to do much of anything other than to sign the tax reform bill and try to eliminate some environmental regulations (the only ones that they have undone were the easy ones that were promulgated by Obama late in the second term; the rest of the work they are doing has to go through notice and comment rulemaking and probably litigation).  Not an especially great track record IMO.

Hillary wrote these people off as deplorables.  Trump is at least trying.  He eliminated at lot of regulation on coal which is helping the industry expand.  He pulled out of Paris giving a boost to the coal industry.  There's more coal exports.  Coal production is up 10% over last year.  The economy is better.  GDP % is the highest it's been in a long time.  Stock market is up 35%.   More people are employed in 40 years including blacks at the highest level ever.  Company's profits are way up.  They can't find enough workers.  Tax legislation was completed helping the lower middle class.  If you were a coal miner, would you prefer Hillary or Trump? 

Some statistics regarding manufacturing:
"Employment in manufacturing continued to grow in June (+36,000).
Over the year, the industry has added 285,000 jobs, for a 2.3-percent
increase. The last time this industry experienced this pace of growth
occurred in February 1995 (+2.4 percent).
"


I can't find labor statistioc for coal miners specifically, but here are statistics for mining in general, probably mostly oil.   So maybe coal miners are switching to oil??


"Employment in mining continued its upward trend in June (+5,000). Support activities for mining contributed 4,000 jobs to the gain. So far in 2018, mining has added 40,000 jobs, with 76 percent (+31,000) coming from support activities for mining. The recent job gains are consistent with increasing numbers of domestic oil rigs , up 1.3 percent between May and June. "


https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/ceshighlights.pdf

[Alan Klein]

Re-examing the statistics I posted, Trump isn't just trying.  He's actually made substantial gains across the board. 

[Jeremy Roussak]

1.  If you go in front of the world and declare that you trust the other side's intelligence powers more than your own, can you think of another word for it than treason?

Yes, Rob, it's an opinion. It may be a silly opinion, or a perverse one, but that's all it is. It's not a betrayal of the country, unless you conflate the intelligence services with the nation.

Jeremy

[Farmer]

Yes, Rob, it's an opinion. It may be a silly opinion, or a perverse one, but that's all it is. It's not a betrayal of the country, unless you conflate the intelligence services with the nation.

Unless you end up making policy decisions against the clear advice and evidence of your intelligence services and instead favour said other nation to the detriment of your own nation.  Then there may be a case.  Trump hasn't done that.  Yet.

[Alan Klein]

Unless you end up making policy decisions against the clear advice and evidence of your intelligence services and instead favour said other nation to the detriment of your own nation.  Then there may be a case.  Trump hasn't done that.  Yet.

You mean like taking the advice of our intelligence agencies that got us into wars in Iraq and Vietnam with 65000 Americans killed?  How about when our CIA got the Shah into power by supporting a coup in Iran causing major issues between our two countries ever since including the hostage crisis that lasted 444 days and lost President Carter his re-election.    The CIA advised Kennedy to support the failed Bay of Pigs invasion of Castro's Cuba that caused the Soviets to install nuclear missiles in Cuba to protect them which almost caused WWIII.  Kennedy also allowed the CIA to support a coup in South Vietnam that got President Diem assassinated.     His wife laughed when Kennedy was subsequently assassinated a year or so later.  It was the CIA who water-boarded those nice fellows in the Middle East who wanted to blow us up and hurt America's reputation for fair play.

Sure the CIA has had successes.  But with the black record described above, a president would be foolish not taking his own counsel.  Trump wants to establish good relations with Russia just as he did with the dictators of North Korea and China.  If he could hug KIm and share dessert with Xi in Mar-a-Lago, certainly having a good relationship with Putin is the thing to do.  That would be to America's and the world's benefit if we can keep hostilities on the back burner.  The whole reason with calling Trump "traitor" is to give credibility to Democrats who can then vote for impeachment with little criticism should they take over the House of Representatives.  It's something we should not do and will cause terrible results for America in the future.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Unless you end up making policy decisions against the clear advice and evidence of your intelligence services and instead favour said other nation to the detriment of your own nation.  Then there may be a case.  Trump hasn't done that.  Yet.

It is the President’s prerogative to take or not advice from those around him. To add to Alan’s examples, google “Operation Northwoods.” Should the then-President’s decision to shelve that advice be considered as a favor to Cuba, thus treasonous?